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I probably made a mistake of trying to put two theories, Darwinian evolution and the theory of thought, which I have no particular no for, together. I was perhaps only trying to apply the original theory to Darwinian evolution, I'm not sure.

 

Regarding randomness. Yes, according to an extension of this theory, although it doesn't directly address such issue, there is no such thing as randomness. Randomness is a concept. Since everything that takes place, will have a underlying force behind it. For example random numbers. You've probably heard that we humans aren't good at forming random numbers, that's why they use computers for this. Computers are good at generating random numbers that are closest to this ideal concept, but never identical. As you probably know, computers make use of a so called "seed" to generate a random number. This seed is usually the time value in terms of ms, so that everytime a random number is generated, this value would be different and hence the outcome would be different. So generation of this so called random number, can be in fact predicted if the seed number is known, which in turn one can attain by knowing the time at which the computer executed the function. So from the conceptual stand point, not that "random" is it?

 

Same can be applied to Darwinian evolution. The whole underlying reason that "randomness" is attributed to darwinian evolution is the fact that genes can recombined "randomly," or mutated "randomly." As far as we care, the process does truly seem random. But again as I said in regards to the computer, such can also be predicted, if all variables are known. However, here is the difficulty. There are so many variables involved, that the outcome is at best "random" to us.

 

So, I'm assuming I'm drifting away into a philosophical discussion rather than a scientific discussion here, however. But as you can, I'm not being contradictory here, by both having determinism and randomness.

 

But I don't believe this is just replacing one force with another force. Genetic and environmental forces are indeed experimentally tangible and proven. We know of their existence, and the extensive role that they play in our lives. But as for God, his existence is at best a figment of imagination, nothing more; moreover lack of adquate knowledge in different phenomenons have been used as a proof of his existence.

 

An interesting question would come to mind however. If this all in fact were true, and cosmos was to repeat from its birth, would the same outcome take place. At first glance, it would seem so, but I think more delving into this is perhaps necessary, as this requires understanding the origions of the cosmos, and the underlying factors involved in the process. A quandary.

 

Thank you my friend for clarifying these things for me, I truly appreciate it. :th

 

The slight problem I still have regarding the application of such theory is that it just more or less replaces the deciding role of a higher conscious ”designer” with responses of the genetic makeups and experiences of the elements to an environmental cue. The reason why I choose to call them elements, is that you include even the nonliving beings in a group wherein members on different levels compete for survival.

 

In my opinion what this ”deterministic” theory does is to: replace the role of God with biological factors!

I choose to call it ”deterministic” because based on what you say it not only rejects the total ”random twist of some kind of a deciding factor” but it also includes the non-living elements as direct players in the Darwinian game of ”survival”!

 

However, the ”random” variable is still there even in this equation, even though in your first post it was rejected via this very theory!

What kind of force is that ”locates an element in a chain of events” or if you want to call it ”environmental cues”?

Is that ”coincidence”? or is it a conscious action? Either planned by a ”grand designer” or decided by a worldly element based on its/her/his genetic makeup and past experiences?

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Thank you my friend for you further explanations. I DO understand your point and find it both interesting and valid.

However (please forgive this defiantly and critically philosophic mind of mine!lol) I can not draw certain conclusions from the basic theory! One is the absolute denial/rejection of a ”conscious natural deciding and driving force” or if you want to call it …God! In my opinion is this higher being considered ”supernatural” or religious/mystical mostly since our present logic and knowledge do not yet ”see” the whole grand concept of NATURE! And therefore call its dark corners and backside as ”supernatural” or ”paranatural”! We simply do not see the whole picture, to decide which elements are present or not!

I however believe that this deciding factor CAN be freed from its religious cloths and proved and explained ultimately as a completely NATURAL ”force”. Whether by numbers or not, I leave it up to the scientists to explore. But I do believe that things that we call ”figments of imagination” have an highly solid and concrete anchor in reality and the ”complete and yet-unseen NATURE”!

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Our brain, just like any other machinary, responds to stimulas/cures received from the outside environment, and inside for that matter. So every action taken by our brain/body is in response to a cue. Unlike computer/machines however, our brain is able to adapt. It stores these information and is able recall and form a better deicision based on the previous experience. So in other words, our past experiences form, if you will, a schema of our decision making.

 

I agree with you on this part ,but i think there is a great scheme" and its planned by God who also determined its nature and scope thats why we have free will but in it is limitid , this is an article by a muslim scientist (Harun yahya) which is actully talks this matter in a scientific way , i havent thought alot about the fate but after i read i understood alot about how does time and fate works .. the only problom is that its kinda long but if you like challenges read it and tell me ur opinion :)

 

The Real Essence of Matter

 

It is evident that "the fact of creation", which reveals itself in every aspect of the universe, cannot be an outcome of the universe itself. For example, a bug could not have created itself. The solar system could not have created or organised itself. Neither plants, humans, bacteria, erythrocytes (red-blood corpuscles) , nor butterflies could have created themselves. The possibility that these all could have originated "by chance" is not even imaginable

We therefore arrive at the following conclusion: Everything that we see has been created. But nothing that we see can be "creators" themselves. The Creator is different from and superior to all that we see with our eyes, a superior power that is invisible but whose existence and attributes are revealed in everything that exists.

This prejudice is about the nature and characteristics of matter. We are so conditioned to suppositions about the existence of matter that we never think about whether or not it does exist or is only a shadow. Modern science demolishes this prejudice and discloses a very important and imposing reality. In the following pages, we will try to explain this great reality to which the Qur'an points.

 

The World Of Electrical Signals

 

All the information that we have about the world we live in is conveyed to us by our five senses. The world we know of consists of what our eye sees, our hand feels, our nose smells, our tongue tastes, and our ear hears. We never think that the "external" world can be other than what our senses present to us as we have been dependent only on those senses since the day of our birth

Modern research in many different fields of science however points to a very different understanding and creates serious doubt about our senses and the world that we perceive with them.

The starting-point of this approach is that the notion of an "external world" shaped in our brain is only a response created in our brain by electrical signals. The redness of the apple, the hardness of the wood, moreover, your mother, father, your family, and everything that you own, your house, your job, and the lines of this book, are comprised only of electrical signals

Frederick Vester explains the point that science has reached on this subject:

Statements of some scientists posing that "man is an image, everything experienced is temporary and deceptive, and this universe is a shadow", seems to be proven by science in our day

The famous philosopher George Berkeley's comment on the subject is as follows:

We believe in the existence of objects just because we see and touch them, and they are reflected to us by our perceptions. However, our perceptions are only ideas in our mind. Thus, objects we captivate by perceptions are nothing but ideas, and these ideas are essentially in nowhere but our mind… Since all these exist only in the mind, then it means that we are beguiled by deceptions when we imagine the universe and things to have an existence outside the mind. So, none of the surrounding things have an existence out of our mind

In order to clarify the subject, let us consider our sense of sight, which provides us with the most extensive information about the external world.

 

How Do We See, Hear, And Taste?

 

The act of seeing is realised in a very progressive way. Light clusters (photons) that travel from the object to the eye pass through the lens in front of the eye where it is broken and falls reversely on the retina at the back of the eye. Here, the impinging light is turned into electrical signals that are transmitted by neurons to a tiny spot called the centre of vision in the back part of the brain. This electrical signal is perceived as an image in this centre in the brain after a series of processes. The act of seeing actually takes place in this tiny spot at the posterior part of the brain which is pitch-dark and completely insulated from light.

Now, let us reconsider this seemingly ordinary and unremarkable process. When we say that "we see", we are in fact seeing the effects of the impulses reaching our eye and induced in our brain after they are transformed into electrical signals. That is, when we say that "we see", we are actually observing electrical signals in our mind.

All the images we view in our lives are formed in our centre of vision, which makes up only a few cubic centimetres of the volume of the brain. Both the book you are now reading and the boundless landscape you see when you gaze at the horizon fit into this tiny space. Another point that has to be kept in mind is that as we have noted before, the brain is insulated from light; its inside is absolutely dark. The brain has no contact with light itself.

The same situation applies to all our other senses. Sound, touch, taste and smell are all transmitted to the brain as electrical signals and are perceived in the relevant centers in the brain

 

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Stimulations coming from an object are converted into electrical signals and cause an effect in the brain. When we "see", we in fact view the effects of these electrical signals in our mind

 

The sense of hearing takes place in the same manner. The outer ear picks up available sounds by the auricle and directs them to the middle ear; the middle ear transmits the sound vibrations to the inner ear by intensifying them; the inner ear sends these vibrations to the brain by translating them into electrical signals. Just as with the eye, the act of hearing finalises in the centre of hearing in the brain. The brain is insulated from sound just like it is from light. Therefore, no matter how noisy it is outside, the inside of the brain is completely silent.

 

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All we see in our lives are formed in a part of our brain called "vision center" at the back of our brain, which makes up only a few cubic centimetres. Both the book you are now reading and the boundless landscape you see when you gaze at the horizon fit into this tiny space. Therefore, we see objects not in their actual size existing outside, but in the size perceived by our brain

 

It is impossible for us to reach the physical world. All objects around us are a collection of perceptions such as seeing, hearing, and touching. By processing the data in the centre of vision and in other sensory centres, our brain, throughout our lives, confronts not the "original" of the matter existing outside us but rather the copy formed inside our brain. It is at this point that we are misled by assuming that these copies are instances of real matter outside us.

"The External World" Inside Our Brain

As a result of the physical facts described so far, we may conclude the following. Everything we see, touch, hear, and perceive as matter", "the world" or "the universe" is nothing but electrical signals occurring in our brain.

Someone eating a fruit in fact confronts not the actual fruit but its perception in the brain. The object considered to be a "fruit" by the person actually consists of an electrical impression in the brain concerning the shape, taste, smell, and texture of the fruit. If the sight nerve travelling to the brain were to be severed suddenly, the image of the fruit would suddenly disappear. Or a disconnection in the nerve travelling from the sensors in the nose to the brain would completely interrupt the sense of smell. Simply put, the fruit is nothing but the interpretation of electrical signals by the brain.

Another point to be considered is the sense of distance. Distance, which is to say the distance between you and this book, is only a feeling of emptiness formed in your brain. Objects that seem to be distant in that person's view also exist in the brain. For instance, someone who watches the stars in the sky assumes that they are millions of light-years away from him. Yet what he "sees" are really the stars inside himself, in his centre of vision. While you read these lines, you are, in truth, not inside the room you assume you are in; on the contrary, the room is inside you. Your seeing your body makes you think that you are inside it. However, you must remember that your body, too, is an image formed inside your brain

 

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As a result of artificial stimulations, a physical world as true and realistic as the real one can be formed in our brain without the existance of physical world. As a result of artificial stimulations, a person may think that he is driving in his car, while he is actually sitting in his home.

 

The "external world" presented to us by our perceptions is merely a collection of the electrical signals reaching our brain. Throughout our lives, these signals are processed by our brain and we live without recognising that we are mistaken in assuming that these are the original versions of matter existing in the "external world". We are misled because we can never reach the matter itself by means of our senses

The prominent thinker Berkeley also addresses this fact:

At the beginning, it was believed that colours, odours, etc., "really exist", but subsequently such views were renounced, and it was seen that they only exist in dependence on our sensations

 

Is The Existence Of The "External World" Indispensable?

 

 

So far we have been speaking repeatedly of an "external world" and a world of perceptions formed in our brain, the latter of which is the one we see. However since we can never actually reach the "external world", how can we be sure that

such a world really exists?

Actually we cannot. Since each object is only a collection of perceptions and those perceptions exist only in the mind, it is more accurate to say that the only world that really exists is the world of perceptions. The only world we know of is the world that exists in our mind: the one that is designed, recorded, and made vivid there; the one, in short, that is created within our mind. This is the only world we can be sure of.

We can never prove that the perceptions we observe in our brain have material correlates. Those perceptions may well be coming from an "artificial" source.

 

Who Is The Perceiver?

 

As we have related so far, there is no doubt of the fact that the world we think we are inhabiting and that we call the "external world" is created inside our brain. However, here arises the question of primary importance. If all the physical events that we know of are intrinsically perceptions, what about our brain? Since our brain is a part of the physical world just like our arm, leg, or any other object, it also should be a perception just like all other objects.

An example about dreams will illuminate the subject further. Let us think that we see the dream within our brain in accordance with what has been said so far. In the dream, we will have an imaginary body, an imaginary arm, an imaginary eye, and an imaginary brain. If during our dream we were asked "where do you see?", we would answer "I see in my brain". Yet, actually there is not any brain to talk about, but an imaginary head and an imaginary brain. The seer of the images is not the imaginary brain in the dream, but a "being" that is far "superior" to it.

 

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The findings of modern physics show that the universe is a collection of perceptions. The following question appears on the cover of the well-known American science magazine New Scientist which dealt with this fact in its 30 January 1999 issue: "Beyond Reality: Is the Universe Really a Frolic of Primal Information and Matter Just a Mirage?"

 

Now, think of this: The book in your hand, the room you are in, in brief, all the images in front of you are seen inside your brain. Is it the atoms that see these images? Blind, deaf, unconscious atoms? Why did some atoms acquire this quality whereas some did not? Do our acts of thinking, comprehending, remembering, being delighted, being unhappy, and everything else consist of the electrochemical reactions between these atoms?

When we ponder these questions, we see that there is no sense in looking for will in atoms. It is clear that the being who sees, hears, and feels is a supra-material being. This being is "alive" and it is neither matter nor an image of matter. This being associates with the perceptions in front of it by using the image of our body.

This being is the "soul".

The aggregate of perceptions we call the "material world" is a dream observed by this soul. Just as the body we possess and the material world we see in our dreams have no reality, the universe we occupy and the body we possess also have no material reality.

The real being is the soul. Matter consists merely of perceptions viewed by the soul. The intelligent beings that write and read these lines are not each a heap of atoms and molecules-and the chemical reactions between them-but a "soul".

The Real Absolute Being

All these facts bring us face to face with a very significant question. If the thing we acknowledge to be the material world is merely comprised of perceptions seen by our soul, then what is the source of these perceptions?

In answering this question, we have to take the following fact into consideration: matter does not have a self-governing existence by itself. Since matter is a perception, it is something "artificial". That is, this perception must have been caused by another power, which means that it must in fact have been created. Moreover, this creation should be continuous. If there was not a continuous and consistent creation, then what we call matter would disappear and be lost. This may be likened to a television on which a picture is displayed as long as the signal continues to be broadcast. So, who makes our soul watch the stars, the earth, the plants, the people, our body and all else that we see?

 

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The brain is a heap of cells made up of protein and fat molecules. It is formed of nerve cells called neurons. There is no power in this piece of meat to observe the images, to constitute consciousness, or to create the being we call "myself".

 

It is very evident that there exists a supreme Creator, Who has created the entire material universe, that is, the sum of perceptions, and Who continues His creation ceaselessly. Since this Creator displays such a magnificent creation, he surely has eternal power and might.

This Creator introduces Himself to us. He has created a book within the universe of sensations He has created and through this book has described us Himself, the universe and the reason of our existence.

This Creator is Allah and the name of His Book is the Qur'an.

The facts that the heavens and the earth, that is, the universe is not stable, that their presence is only made possible by Allah's creation and that they will disappear when He ends this creation, are all explained in a verse as follows ....

 

FATE

 

time comes to exist as a result of the comparison made between some illusions stored in the brain. If man did not have memory, then his brain would not be making such interpretations and therefore the perception of time would never have been formed. The reason why one determines himself to be thirty years old is only because he has accumulated information pertaining to those thirty years in his mind. If his memory did not exist, then he would not be thinking of the existence of such a preceding period of time and he would only be experiencing the single "moment" he was living in.

The relativity of time is a fact also verified by the most important physicist of the 20th century, Albert Einstein. Lincoln Barnett, writes in his book The Universe and Dr. Einstein:

Einstein himself pointed out, as quoted from Barnett's book: "space and time are forms of intuition, which can no more be divorced from consciousness than can our concepts of color, shape, or size." According to the Theory of General Relativity: "time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it."

Since time consists of perception, it depends entirely on the perceiver and is therefore relative.

The speed at which time flows differs according to the references we use to measure it because there is no natural clock in the human body to indicate precisely how fast time passes. As Lincoln Barnett wrote: "Just as there is no such thing as color without an eye to discern it, so an instant or an hour or a day is nothing without an event to mark it."

The relativity of time is plainly experienced in dreams. Although what we see in our dream seems to last for hours, in fact, it only lasts for a few minutes, and even a few seconds

 

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Time is a concept entirely contingent on the perceiver. While a certain time period seems long for one person, it may seem short for another. In order to understand which one is right, we need sources such as clocks and calendars. It is impossible to make correct judgments about time without them.

 

Let us explain this with an example given by Einstein himself. Imagine two twins, one of whom stays on earth while the other goes travelling in space at a speed close to the speed of light. When he comes back, the traveller will see that his brother has grown much older than he has. The reason is that time flows much slower for the person who travels at speeds near the speed of light. If the same example is applied to a space-travelling father and his earth-bound son, if the father was 27 years old when he set out and his son 3; when the father comes back to the earth 30 years later (earth time) , the son will be 33 years old but his father will be only 30

It should be pointed out that this relativity of time is caused not by the slowing down or running fast of clocks or the slow running of a mechanical spring. It is rather the result of the differentiated operation periods of the entire material system which goes as deep as sub-atomic particles. In other words, the shortening of time is not like acting in a slow-motion picture for the person experiencing it. In such a setting where time shortens, one's heartbeats, cell replications, and brain functions, and so on all operate slower than those of the slower-moving person on Earth. The person goes on with his daily life and does not notice the shortening of time at all. Indeed the shortening does not even become apparent until the comparison is made

The conclusion to which we are led by the findings of modern science is that time is not an absolute fact as supposed by materialists, but only a relative perception. What is more interesting is that this fact, undiscovered until the 20th century by science, was imparted to mankind in the Qur'an 14 centuries ago. There are various references in the Qur'an to the relativity of time.

 

Destiny

 

This relativity of time clears up a very important matter. The relativity is so variable that a period of time appearing billions of years' duration to us, may last only a second in another dimension. Moreover, an enormous period of time extending from the world's beginning to its end may not even last a second but just an instant in another dimension.

This is the very essence of the concept of destiny- a concept that is not well understood by most people, especially materialists, who deny it completely. Destiny is Allah's perfect knowledge of all events past or future. A majority of people question how Allah can already know events that have not yet been experienced and this leads them to fail in understanding the authenticity of destiny. However, "events not yet experienced" are not yet experienced only for us. Allah is not bound by time or space for He Himself has created them. For this reason, the past, the future, and the present are all the same to Allah; for Him, everything has already taken place and finished

Lincoln Barnett explains how the Theory of General Relativity leads to this fact in The Universe and Dr. Einstein: According to Barnett, the universe can be "encompassed in its entire majesty only by a cosmic intellect". The will that Barnett calls "the cosmic intellect" is the wisdom and knowledge of Allah, Who prevails over the entire universe. Just as we easily see a ruler's beginning, middle, and end, and all the units in between as a whole, Allah knows the time we are subjected to like a single moment right from its beginning to the end. People experience incidents only when their time comes and they witness the fate Allah has created for them.

It is also important to draw attention to the shallowness of the distorted understanding of destiny prevalent in society. This distorted conviction of fate holds a superstitious belief that Allah has determined a "destiny" for every man but that these destinies can sometimes be changed by people. For instance, for a patient who returns from death's door people make superficial statements like "He defeated his destiny". Yet, no one is able to change his destiny. The person who turns from death's door does not die because he is destined not to die then. It is again the destiny of those people who deceive themselves by saying "I defeated my destiny" to say so and maintain such a mindset.

Destiny is the eternal knowledge of Allah and for Allah, Who knows time like a single moment and Who prevails over the whole time and space, everything is determined and finished in a destiny. We also understand from what is related in the Qur'an that time is one for Allah: some incidents that appear to happen to us in the future are related in the Qur'an in such a way that they already took place long before. For instance, the verses that describe the account that people are to give to Allah in the hereafter are related as events which already occurred long ago:

As said before, the questions of death, paradise, hell, the hereafter, changing dimensions, and important questions such as "Where is Allah?", "What was before Allah?", "Who created Allah?", "How long will the life in cemetery last?", "Where are heaven and hell?", and "Where do heaven and hell currently exist?" will be easily answered. It will be understood with what kind of a system Allah created the entire universe from nothingness. So much so that, with this secret, the questions of "when", and "where" become meaningless because there will be no time and no place left. When spacelessness is comprehended, it will be understood that hell, heaven and earth are all actually at the same place. If timelessness is understood, it will be understood that everything takes place at a single moment: nothing is waited for and time does not go by, because everything has already happened and finished.

With this secret delved, the world becomes like heaven for a believer. All distressful material worries, anxieties, and fears vanish. The person grasps that the entire universe has a single Sovereign, that He changes the entire physical world as He pleases and that all he has to do is to turn unto Him. He then submits himself entirely to Allah "to be devoted to His service". (Surat Aal-e Imran, 35)

 

 

i know its long bebakhshid for that :) but i recoment everybody to visit his website http://www.harunyahya.com/

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I agree with you in that you cannot absolutely reject the existence of this supernatural being. From a scientific pov however, something has to be tangible, or measurable by some sort of instrument, or its existence proven by deductions from already proven concepts. So it's not that science rejects the existence of God per se, but it can't prove its existence either. I'm talking about God here of course, not religious ideologies; concepts such as an unalterable and unchanging universe, which are of course flatly rejected by science.

 

I do agree with you also, that currently we are unable to see "the" Nature. But it does not grant us privelege to accept all sorts of ideologies and imaginations regarding the nature of our universe. Some may indeed have concrete basis in reality, but I believe that's a minority. Science has been able to function as a filter for these ideas thus far.

 

At the end, belief in God comes down to each individual, for now. I may legitimately believe in an absence of such force, on the other hand, you may legitimately believe in existence of such force.

 

 

Thank you my friend for you further explanations. I DO understand your point and find it both interesting and valid.

However (please forgive this defiantly and critically philosophic mind of mine!lol) I can not draw certain conclusions from the basic theory! One is the absolute denial/rejection of a ”conscious natural deciding and driving force” or if you want to call it …God! In my opinion is this higher being considered ”supernatural” or religious/mystical mostly since our present logic and knowledge do not yet ”see” the whole grand concept of NATURE! And therefore call its dark corners and backside as ”supernatural” or ”paranatural”! We simply do not see the whole picture, to decide which elements are present or not!

I however believe that this deciding factor CAN be freed from its religious cloths and proved and explained ultimately as a completely NATURAL ”force”. Whether by numbers or not, I leave it up to the scientists to explore. But I do believe that things that we call ”figments of imagination” have an highly solid and concrete anchor in reality and the ”complete and yet-unseen NATURE”!

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Kimo jan, thanks for you psot. However, I must say the argument made by Harun Yahya is flawed in some aspects of it. Moreover, he does describe scientific background behind our perceptions well, but he rather drifts away from the science rather bluntly, in order to persue his own ideology. Hence, his argument is easily refutable.

 

The first paragraph states:

 

"It is evident that "the fact of creation", which reveals itself in every aspect of the universe, cannot be an outcome of the universe itself. For example, a bug could not have created itself. The solar system could not have created or organised itself. Neither plants, humans, bacteria, erythrocytes (red-blood corpuscles) , nor butterflies could have created themselves. The possibility that these all could have originated "by chance" is not even imaginable"

 

How is it evident that creation is not an outcome of the universe??? Darwinian evolution, which some take the liberty of calling a "theory," is very much an accepted concept in the scientific community. And a study of genetics would bolster the Darwinian argument for evolution. Development of bacterial resistance is the a very simple example of an evolving organism. A simple study of molecular biology and genetics would make the concept of evolution and how organisms came into being vivid. It is therefore not practical to prove the existence of a superior being on such argument.

 

Yahya makes the argument for the existence of the soal, by stating that since there is no will in atoms, and atoms are incapable of sensing, then there's gotta be a soal. The fact is, it's a collections of atoms, our neuronal cell, and their subsequent complex intercommunication amongst them, that makes such faculties possible. The field of neurobiology is still a premature science, and has not been able to explain all the brain processes, however images of the brain during different activities have shown that brain is in fact incredibly organized. Different sites are responsible for different sensations. There surely must be something intrinstic in the brain, that aids our conception of self. This conception of self, is what Yaha attempts to call soal. But conception of self, surely, cannot be more complicated for our brain to process, that the sensation of seeing, hearing, taste, and etc....And again, in this case it is not feasible to prove the existence of soal, based on such argument.

 

Of course, as pouya and I have stated, Existence of God can be neither proved nor disproved.

 

I can probably expand upon my rebuttal for Yahya's arguments, but my fingers are getting rather sore. :)

 

 

Our brain, just like any other machinary, responds to stimulas/cures received from the outside environment, and inside for that matter. So every action taken by our brain/body is in response to a cue. Unlike computer/machines however, our brain is able to adapt. It stores these information and is able recall and form a better deicision based on the previous experience. So in other words, our past experiences form, if you will, a schema of our decision making.

 

I agree with you on this part ,but i think there is a great scheme" and its planned by God who also determined its nature and scope thats why we have free will but in it is limitid , this is an article by a muslim scientist (Harun yahya) which is actully talks this matter in a scientific way , i havent thought alot about the fate but after i read i understood alot about how does time and fate works .. the only problom is that its kinda long but if you like challenges read it and tell me ur opinion :)

 

The Real Essence of Matter

 

It is evident that "the fact of creation", which reveals itself in every aspect of the universe, cannot be an outcome of the universe itself. For example, a bug could not have created itself. The solar system could not have created or organised itself. Neither plants, humans, bacteria, erythrocytes (red-blood corpuscles) , nor butterflies could have created themselves. The possibility that these all could have originated "by chance" is not even imaginable

We therefore arrive at the following conclusion: Everything that we see has been created. But nothing that we see can be "creators" themselves. The Creator is different from and superior to all that we see with our eyes, a superior power that is invisible but whose existence and attributes are revealed in everything that exists.

This prejudice is about the nature and characteristics of matter. We are so conditioned to suppositions about the existence of matter that we never think about whether or not it does exist or is only a shadow. Modern science demolishes this prejudice and discloses a very important and imposing reality. In the following pages, we will try to explain this great reality to which the Qur'an points.

 

The World Of Electrical Signals

 

All the information that we have about the world we live in is conveyed to us by our five senses. The world we know of consists of what our eye sees, our hand feels, our nose smells, our tongue tastes, and our ear hears. We never think that the "external" world can be other than what our senses present to us as we have been dependent only on those senses since the day of our birth

Modern research in many different fields of science however points to a very different understanding and creates serious doubt about our senses and the world that we perceive with them.

The starting-point of this approach is that the notion of an "external world" shaped in our brain is only a response created in our brain by electrical signals. The redness of the apple, the hardness of the wood, moreover, your mother, father, your family, and everything that you own, your house, your job, and the lines of this book, are comprised only of electrical signals

Frederick Vester explains the point that science has reached on this subject:

Statements of some scientists posing that "man is an image, everything experienced is temporary and deceptive, and this universe is a shadow", seems to be proven by science in our day

The famous philosopher George Berkeley's comment on the subject is as follows:

We believe in the existence of objects just because we see and touch them, and they are reflected to us by our perceptions. However, our perceptions are only ideas in our mind. Thus, objects we captivate by perceptions are nothing but ideas, and these ideas are essentially in nowhere but our mind… Since all these exist only in the mind, then it means that we are beguiled by deceptions when we imagine the universe and things to have an existence outside the mind. So, none of the surrounding things have an existence out of our mind

In order to clarify the subject, let us consider our sense of sight, which provides us with the most extensive information about the external world.

 

How Do We See, Hear, And Taste?

 

The act of seeing is realised in a very progressive way. Light clusters (photons) that travel from the object to the eye pass through the lens in front of the eye where it is broken and falls reversely on the retina at the back of the eye. Here, the impinging light is turned into electrical signals that are transmitted by neurons to a tiny spot called the centre of vision in the back part of the brain. This electrical signal is perceived as an image in this centre in the brain after a series of processes. The act of seeing actually takes place in this tiny spot at the posterior part of the brain which is pitch-dark and completely insulated from light.

Now, let us reconsider this seemingly ordinary and unremarkable process. When we say that "we see", we are in fact seeing the effects of the impulses reaching our eye and induced in our brain after they are transformed into electrical signals. That is, when we say that "we see", we are actually observing electrical signals in our mind.

All the images we view in our lives are formed in our centre of vision, which makes up only a few cubic centimetres of the volume of the brain. Both the book you are now reading and the boundless landscape you see when you gaze at the horizon fit into this tiny space. Another point that has to be kept in mind is that as we have noted before, the brain is insulated from light; its inside is absolutely dark. The brain has no contact with light itself.

The same situation applies to all our other senses. Sound, touch, taste and smell are all transmitted to the brain as electrical signals and are perceived in the relevant centers in the brain

 

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Stimulations coming from an object are converted into electrical signals and cause an effect in the brain. When we "see", we in fact view the effects of these electrical signals in our mind

 

The sense of hearing takes place in the same manner. The outer ear picks up available sounds by the auricle and directs them to the middle ear; the middle ear transmits the sound vibrations to the inner ear by intensifying them; the inner ear sends these vibrations to the brain by translating them into electrical signals. Just as with the eye, the act of hearing finalises in the centre of hearing in the brain. The brain is insulated from sound just like it is from light. Therefore, no matter how noisy it is outside, the inside of the brain is completely silent.

 

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All we see in our lives are formed in a part of our brain called "vision center" at the back of our brain, which makes up only a few cubic centimetres. Both the book you are now reading and the boundless landscape you see when you gaze at the horizon fit into this tiny space. Therefore, we see objects not in their actual size existing outside, but in the size perceived by our brain

 

It is impossible for us to reach the physical world. All objects around us are a collection of perceptions such as seeing, hearing, and touching. By processing the data in the centre of vision and in other sensory centres, our brain, throughout our lives, confronts not the "original" of the matter existing outside us but rather the copy formed inside our brain. It is at this point that we are misled by assuming that these copies are instances of real matter outside us.

"The External World" Inside Our Brain

As a result of the physical facts described so far, we may conclude the following. Everything we see, touch, hear, and perceive as matter", "the world" or "the universe" is nothing but electrical signals occurring in our brain.

Someone eating a fruit in fact confronts not the actual fruit but its perception in the brain. The object considered to be a "fruit" by the person actually consists of an electrical impression in the brain concerning the shape, taste, smell, and texture of the fruit. If the sight nerve travelling to the brain were to be severed suddenly, the image of the fruit would suddenly disappear. Or a disconnection in the nerve travelling from the sensors in the nose to the brain would completely interrupt the sense of smell. Simply put, the fruit is nothing but the interpretation of electrical signals by the brain.

Another point to be considered is the sense of distance. Distance, which is to say the distance between you and this book, is only a feeling of emptiness formed in your brain. Objects that seem to be distant in that person's view also exist in the brain. For instance, someone who watches the stars in the sky assumes that they are millions of light-years away from him. Yet what he "sees" are really the stars inside himself, in his centre of vision. While you read these lines, you are, in truth, not inside the room you assume you are in; on the contrary, the room is inside you. Your seeing your body makes you think that you are inside it. However, you must remember that your body, too, is an image formed inside your brain

 

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As a result of artificial stimulations, a physical world as true and realistic as the real one can be formed in our brain without the existance of physical world. As a result of artificial stimulations, a person may think that he is driving in his car, while he is actually sitting in his home.

 

The "external world" presented to us by our perceptions is merely a collection of the electrical signals reaching our brain. Throughout our lives, these signals are processed by our brain and we live without recognising that we are mistaken in assuming that these are the original versions of matter existing in the "external world". We are misled because we can never reach the matter itself by means of our senses

The prominent thinker Berkeley also addresses this fact:

At the beginning, it was believed that colours, odours, etc., "really exist", but subsequently such views were renounced, and it was seen that they only exist in dependence on our sensations

 

Is The Existence Of The "External World" Indispensable?

 

 

So far we have been speaking repeatedly of an "external world" and a world of perceptions formed in our brain, the latter of which is the one we see. However since we can never actually reach the "external world", how can we be sure that

such a world really exists?

Actually we cannot. Since each object is only a collection of perceptions and those perceptions exist only in the mind, it is more accurate to say that the only world that really exists is the world of perceptions. The only world we know of is the world that exists in our mind: the one that is designed, recorded, and made vivid there; the one, in short, that is created within our mind. This is the only world we can be sure of.

We can never prove that the perceptions we observe in our brain have material correlates. Those perceptions may well be coming from an "artificial" source.

 

Who Is The Perceiver?

 

As we have related so far, there is no doubt of the fact that the world we think we are inhabiting and that we call the "external world" is created inside our brain. However, here arises the question of primary importance. If all the physical events that we know of are intrinsically perceptions, what about our brain? Since our brain is a part of the physical world just like our arm, leg, or any other object, it also should be a perception just like all other objects.

An example about dreams will illuminate the subject further. Let us think that we see the dream within our brain in accordance with what has been said so far. In the dream, we will have an imaginary body, an imaginary arm, an imaginary eye, and an imaginary brain. If during our dream we were asked "where do you see?", we would answer "I see in my brain". Yet, actually there is not any brain to talk about, but an imaginary head and an imaginary brain. The seer of the images is not the imaginary brain in the dream, but a "being" that is far "superior" to it.

 

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The findings of modern physics show that the universe is a collection of perceptions. The following question appears on the cover of the well-known American science magazine New Scientist which dealt with this fact in its 30 January 1999 issue: "Beyond Reality: Is the Universe Really a Frolic of Primal Information and Matter Just a Mirage?"

 

Now, think of this: The book in your hand, the room you are in, in brief, all the images in front of you are seen inside your brain. Is it the atoms that see these images? Blind, deaf, unconscious atoms? Why did some atoms acquire this quality whereas some did not? Do our acts of thinking, comprehending, remembering, being delighted, being unhappy, and everything else consist of the electrochemical reactions between these atoms?

When we ponder these questions, we see that there is no sense in looking for will in atoms. It is clear that the being who sees, hears, and feels is a supra-material being. This being is "alive" and it is neither matter nor an image of matter. This being associates with the perceptions in front of it by using the image of our body.

This being is the "soul".

The aggregate of perceptions we call the "material world" is a dream observed by this soul. Just as the body we possess and the material world we see in our dreams have no reality, the universe we occupy and the body we possess also have no material reality.

The real being is the soul. Matter consists merely of perceptions viewed by the soul. The intelligent beings that write and read these lines are not each a heap of atoms and molecules-and the chemical reactions between them-but a "soul".

The Real Absolute Being

All these facts bring us face to face with a very significant question. If the thing we acknowledge to be the material world is merely comprised of perceptions seen by our soul, then what is the source of these perceptions?

In answering this question, we have to take the following fact into consideration: matter does not have a self-governing existence by itself. Since matter is a perception, it is something "artificial". That is, this perception must have been caused by another power, which means that it must in fact have been created. Moreover, this creation should be continuous. If there was not a continuous and consistent creation, then what we call matter would disappear and be lost. This may be likened to a television on which a picture is displayed as long as the signal continues to be broadcast. So, who makes our soul watch the stars, the earth, the plants, the people, our body and all else that we see?

 

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The brain is a heap of cells made up of protein and fat molecules. It is formed of nerve cells called neurons. There is no power in this piece of meat to observe the images, to constitute consciousness, or to create the being we call "myself".

 

It is very evident that there exists a supreme Creator, Who has created the entire material universe, that is, the sum of perceptions, and Who continues His creation ceaselessly. Since this Creator displays such a magnificent creation, he surely has eternal power and might.

This Creator introduces Himself to us. He has created a book within the universe of sensations He has created and through this book has described us Himself, the universe and the reason of our existence.

This Creator is Allah and the name of His Book is the Qur'an.

The facts that the heavens and the earth, that is, the universe is not stable, that their presence is only made possible by Allah's creation and that they will disappear when He ends this creation, are all explained in a verse as follows ....

 

FATE

 

time comes to exist as a result of the comparison made between some illusions stored in the brain. If man did not have memory, then his brain would not be making such interpretations and therefore the perception of time would never have been formed. The reason why one determines himself to be thirty years old is only because he has accumulated information pertaining to those thirty years in his mind. If his memory did not exist, then he would not be thinking of the existence of such a preceding period of time and he would only be experiencing the single "moment" he was living in.

The relativity of time is a fact also verified by the most important physicist of the 20th century, Albert Einstein. Lincoln Barnett, writes in his book The Universe and Dr. Einstein:

Einstein himself pointed out, as quoted from Barnett's book: "space and time are forms of intuition, which can no more be divorced from consciousness than can our concepts of color, shape, or size." According to the Theory of General Relativity: "time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it."

Since time consists of perception, it depends entirely on the perceiver and is therefore relative.

The speed at which time flows differs according to the references we use to measure it because there is no natural clock in the human body to indicate precisely how fast time passes. As Lincoln Barnett wrote: "Just as there is no such thing as color without an eye to discern it, so an instant or an hour or a day is nothing without an event to mark it."

The relativity of time is plainly experienced in dreams. Although what we see in our dream seems to last for hours, in fact, it only lasts for a few minutes, and even a few seconds

 

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Time is a concept entirely contingent on the perceiver. While a certain time period seems long for one person, it may seem short for another. In order to understand which one is right, we need sources such as clocks and calendars. It is impossible to make correct judgments about time without them.

 

Let us explain this with an example given by Einstein himself. Imagine two twins, one of whom stays on earth while the other goes travelling in space at a speed close to the speed of light. When he comes back, the traveller will see that his brother has grown much older than he has. The reason is that time flows much slower for the person who travels at speeds near the speed of light. If the same example is applied to a space-travelling father and his earth-bound son, if the father was 27 years old when he set out and his son 3; when the father comes back to the earth 30 years later (earth time) , the son will be 33 years old but his father will be only 30

It should be pointed out that this relativity of time is caused not by the slowing down or running fast of clocks or the slow running of a mechanical spring. It is rather the result of the differentiated operation periods of the entire material system which goes as deep as sub-atomic particles. In other words, the shortening of time is not like acting in a slow-motion picture for the person experiencing it. In such a setting where time shortens, one's heartbeats, cell replications, and brain functions, and so on all operate slower than those of the slower-moving person on Earth. The person goes on with his daily life and does not notice the shortening of time at all. Indeed the shortening does not even become apparent until the comparison is made

The conclusion to which we are led by the findings of modern science is that time is not an absolute fact as supposed by materialists, but only a relative perception. What is more interesting is that this fact, undiscovered until the 20th century by science, was imparted to mankind in the Qur'an 14 centuries ago. There are various references in the Qur'an to the relativity of time.

 

Destiny

 

This relativity of time clears up a very important matter. The relativity is so variable that a period of time appearing billions of years' duration to us, may last only a second in another dimension. Moreover, an enormous period of time extending from the world's beginning to its end may not even last a second but just an instant in another dimension.

This is the very essence of the concept of destiny- a concept that is not well understood by most people, especially materialists, who deny it completely. Destiny is Allah's perfect knowledge of all events past or future. A majority of people question how Allah can already know events that have not yet been experienced and this leads them to fail in understanding the authenticity of destiny. However, "events not yet experienced" are not yet experienced only for us. Allah is not bound by time or space for He Himself has created them. For this reason, the past, the future, and the present are all the same to Allah; for Him, everything has already taken place and finished

Lincoln Barnett explains how the Theory of General Relativity leads to this fact in The Universe and Dr. Einstein: According to Barnett, the universe can be "encompassed in its entire majesty only by a cosmic intellect". The will that Barnett calls "the cosmic intellect" is the wisdom and knowledge of Allah, Who prevails over the entire universe. Just as we easily see a ruler's beginning, middle, and end, and all the units in between as a whole, Allah knows the time we are subjected to like a single moment right from its beginning to the end. People experience incidents only when their time comes and they witness the fate Allah has created for them.

It is also important to draw attention to the shallowness of the distorted understanding of destiny prevalent in society. This distorted conviction of fate holds a superstitious belief that Allah has determined a "destiny" for every man but that these destinies can sometimes be changed by people. For instance, for a patient who returns from death's door people make superficial statements like "He defeated his destiny". Yet, no one is able to change his destiny. The person who turns from death's door does not die because he is destined not to die then. It is again the destiny of those people who deceive themselves by saying "I defeated my destiny" to say so and maintain such a mindset.

Destiny is the eternal knowledge of Allah and for Allah, Who knows time like a single moment and Who prevails over the whole time and space, everything is determined and finished in a destiny. We also understand from what is related in the Qur'an that time is one for Allah: some incidents that appear to happen to us in the future are related in the Qur'an in such a way that they already took place long before. For instance, the verses that describe the account that people are to give to Allah in the hereafter are related as events which already occurred long ago:

As said before, the questions of death, paradise, hell, the hereafter, changing dimensions, and important questions such as "Where is Allah?", "What was before Allah?", "Who created Allah?", "How long will the life in cemetery last?", "Where are heaven and hell?", and "Where do heaven and hell currently exist?" will be easily answered. It will be understood with what kind of a system Allah created the entire universe from nothingness. So much so that, with this secret, the questions of "when", and "where" become meaningless because there will be no time and no place left. When spacelessness is comprehended, it will be understood that hell, heaven and earth are all actually at the same place. If timelessness is understood, it will be understood that everything takes place at a single moment: nothing is waited for and time does not go by, because everything has already happened and finished.

With this secret delved, the world becomes like heaven for a believer. All distressful material worries, anxieties, and fears vanish. The person grasps that the entire universe has a single Sovereign, that He changes the entire physical world as He pleases and that all he has to do is to turn unto Him. He then submits himself entirely to Allah "to be devoted to His service". (Surat Aal-e Imran, 35)

 

 

i know its long bebakhshid for that :) but i recoment everybody to visit his website http://www.harunyahya.com/

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houmanator jaan,

 

I too consider ”science” as THE ultimate ”filter”!

However! This is only a filter woven by the man's mind, and just like that mind it is not yet even close to a complete and Fully developed status! Because of these incompleteness, I believe that much of the elements go lost and unnoticed despite their natural "tangibility"!

The scientific filter used today is not the same as it was used in the post-enlightenment and renaissance! Therefore, I hold a critical stance to its ability to function as a full-fledged detector and validator! …YET that is! ;)

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can't argue with that

 

houmanator jaan,

 

I too consider ”science” as THE ultimate ”filter”!

However! This is only a filter woven by the man's mind, and just like that mind it is not yet even close to a complete and Fully developed status! Because of these incompleteness, I believe that much of the elements go lost and unnoticed despite their natural "tangibility"! 

The scientific filter used today is not the same as it was used in the post-enlightenment and renaissance! Therefore, I hold a critical stance to its ability to function as a full-fledged detector and validator! …YET that is!    ;)

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Thanx for ur reply Humanator jan

 

How is it evident that creation is not an outcome of the universe??? Darwinian evolution, which some take the liberty of calling a "theory," is very much an accepted concept in the scientific community. And a study of genetics would bolster the Darwinian argument for evolution

 

well im not that good at science, and yes the evolution had became a fact scientificly but the theory of evolution is very different from what is usually suppose , cuz it doesnt tell the story of Creation (the very beginig) because its about moving from a level to another but what do you think about the theory whcih says human were evoluted from monkeys ?? is it possible that human gain spirit which makes human different from animals and by spirit i mean being emotional (angry, disappointed, frightened or hopeful, dreaming and his artistic genius) Mr harun tells why the Evolution theory is not totally valid The Collapse of the Theory of Evolution

 

our neuronal cell, and their subsequent complex intercommunication amongst them, that makes such faculties possible. The field of neurobiology is still a premature science, and has not been able to explain all the brain processes, however images of the brain during different activities have shown that brain is in fact incredibly organized.

 

Yes true but what moves our neuronal cells ? what gives the the order and the will ? isnt it the soul ? for example someone is sitting on the beach and he's watching the sunrise ,he watches the sunset in his mind, and it is his soul that takes pleasure in it.

 

----

i have a class now , gotta go :)

my regards

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Kimo Jan,

 

Story of creation is indeed not explained by Darwin, but it is explained by other scientific theories. Such is the Oparin's theory, and subsequent experiment by Stanley Miller and Harold Urey. The theory sets out to explain that given the original conditions of the earth atmosphere, it would have been possible for de novo generation of organic molecules, which are the building blocks of life on earth. Urey and Miller decided to test the hypothesis, and created conditions in an apparatus in their lab, that may have been present in early atmosphere. Their experiment was incredible, as it produced not only organic molecules, but also majority of amino acids, which are the building blocks of proteins, which are of course essential for life on earth. They also observed rudimentary protoplasms. So that's how it's believed life began.

 

Your questions regarding human descending from monkeys, is unfortunately way too blunt. That's how everybody goes about attacking Darwinian evolution. "Men descended from monkey...what a crazy idea...nonsense." But one has to be bit more insightful. It didn't happen in overnight. It took thousands, or even million of years to take place. And it was gradual process, not sudden. It's not coincidence that we share 95%-98% genetic similarity with chimpanzees. Of course, there is always a cry of "why aren't monkeys becoming humans today?" Well again, the process took thousands of years. Any sort of change in the genome of a monkey must confer some sort of advantage to its survival, and perhaps the same genomic alteration that might have been advntageous thousands of years ago doesn't hold true anymore, due to the already presence of humans. Again, evolution is extremely simple if one takes the time to study it with an open mind.

 

 

"Yes true but what moves our neuronal cells ? what gives the the order and the will ?"

 

I'm not sure what you mean, but organization of neuronal cell is through a complex system of cell-cell interaction, so does its organization, through molecular interactions, much of which has been elucidated, but of course there is still a long road ahead. Interactions of neurons however as I have said earlier is extremely simple; through transmission of small electrial depolarizations along the neuronal cell.

 

Let me bring an interesting example regarding the development of human brain. Brain development can be observed rather readily among infants. Infants of young age, unfortunately I don't remember the age range, but nonetheless several months of age, lack the ability to recognize the permanence of objects around them. In other words, suppose they are playing with a toy, and you take the toy away from them, and hide it behind your back, as long as they aren't able to see it, to them it's as if the objects, the toy that is, ceases to exist, and they won't look around to look for it. Same goes for living subjects. That's the main reason, kids of young age are fascinated with peekaboo. One second moms there, and all the sudden she disappears, oh and there she comes back again. As kids grow up however, they follow up on the toy, and go around looking for it. This was to explain how the brain develops, and if there was any soul, shouldn't have they been able to accept the permanence of objects from the beginning.

 

As to the enjoyment of moments and objects, again there is a brain center for that. And for every sort of mood, there is always, also, a specific chemical neurotransmitters associated with that. Why do you think substance abuse is? Getting high, is basically manipulation of chemical stimulation of the brain. Overuse would result in downregulation of the receptor, and that's why abusers would keep using incremented amount of the substance, and will never be able to experience the same incredible "high" they felt the first time. Again, feeling are all nothing but molecular and chemical interactions in the brain.

 

Thanks

 

 

Thanx for ur reply Humanator jan

 

How is it evident that creation is not an outcome of the universe??? Darwinian evolution, which some take the liberty of calling a "theory," is very much an accepted concept in the scientific community. And a study of genetics would bolster the Darwinian argument for evolution

 

well im not that good at science, and yes the evolution had became a fact scientificly but the theory of evolution is very different from what is usually suppose , cuz it doesnt tell the story of Creation (the very beginig) because its about moving from a level to another but what do you think about the theory whcih says human were evoluted from monkeys ?? is it possible that human gain spirit which makes human different from animals and by spirit i mean being emotional (angry, disappointed, frightened or hopeful, dreaming and his artistic genius) Mr harun tells why the Evolution theory is not totally valid The Collapse of the Theory of Evolution

 

our neuronal cell, and their subsequent complex intercommunication amongst them, that makes such faculties possible. The field of neurobiology is still a premature science, and has not been able to explain all the brain processes, however images of the brain during different activities have shown that brain is in fact incredibly organized.

 

Yes true but what moves our neuronal cells ? what gives the the order and the will ? isnt it the soul ? for example someone is sitting on the beach and he's watching the sunrise ,he watches the sunset in his mind, and it is his soul that takes pleasure in it.

 

----

i have a class now , gotta go :)

my regards

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If this all in fact were true, and cosmos was to repeat from its birth, would the same outcome take place. At first glance, it would seem so, but I think more delving into this is perhaps necessary, as this requires understanding the origions of the cosmos, and the underlying factors involved in the process.

 

 

hey houmanator jan!!hope all is well! :):):)

 

that's a very interesting question... now assuming that mind is consist of different levels according to Freud, i.e. conscious, subconscious etc… and let’s say if the whole life were to repeat itself, and traces of the past life were to remain in the subconscious mind, -as some ppl claim that they experience past life regression and get flashback episodes from their past life- and assuming that one could activate the subconscious mind to the extent that one could completely remember the details of one’s past life, isn’t this where an element of choice comes into being? Knowing the outcome of one's past life, one could completely change one’s response to similar environmental cues in the same environment in the present life and consequently change the final outcome? Thus an element of personal choice- and not merely biological and/or environmental factors- plays a crucial rule here and knowing the past life, one could have a complete CONTROL over thier present life? :huh: :huh:

Could u clarify this plz?Many thanx!! :):):):)

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Guest Guest_Igor1960_*

I often thinking: I don't can change my life, but I can change my attitude to life.

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Shazdeh khanoom jan,

 

sorry for the late reply, but I've been incredibly busy in recent days.

 

The mere idea of past life is of course taken with a grain of salt in science. But nevertheless, lets for argument sake, say such was in fact true; and that our subconsious possesses experiences from our previous life. But still this constitutes part of the brain, part of the neuron system. Subconscious isn't a separate entity from the brain, at least I'm not sure Freud believed it was. So given that subconscious is indeed a functional unit of the cranium, any action that is attributable from its activity is hence attributable to the brain, and does not refute the stated theory. Moreover such would not denote a personal choice. Succinctly, whether it is memory from past life or memory from present life, they are both the same.

 

I hope this made sense.

Again sorry for the delay.

 

If this all in fact were true, and cosmos was to repeat from its birth, would the same outcome take place. At first glance, it would seem so, but I think more delving into this is perhaps necessary, as this requires understanding the origions of the cosmos, and the underlying factors involved in the process.

 

 

hey houmanator jan!!hope all is well! :):):)

 

that's a very interesting question... now assuming that mind is consist of different levels according to Freud, i.e. conscious, subconscious etc… and let’s say if the whole life were to repeat itself, and traces of the past life were to remain in the subconscious mind, -as some ppl claim that they experience past life regression and get flashback episodes from their past life- and assuming that one could activate the subconscious mind to the extent that one could completely remember the details of one’s past life, isn’t this where an element of choice comes into being? Knowing the outcome of one's past life, one could completely change one’s response to similar environmental cues in the same environment in the present life and consequently change the final outcome? Thus an element of personal choice- and not merely biological and/or environmental factors- plays a crucial rule here and knowing the past life, one could have a complete CONTROL over thier present life? :huh: :huh:

Could u clarify this plz?Many thanx!! :):):):)

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Hi houmanator jan! :wub:

 

hope all is well, eid e shoma mobarak :wub::wub:

 

soory i didnt reply sooner :bl :bl :bl :bl

 

so are u saying that at the end of the day, mind is a biological entity & as such is the determinative factor in shaping one's pathway in life?

 

i think based on Freudian psychology, subconscious mind is to be distinguished from the conscious mind- i.e. the biological mind- and is in close connection with " the soul" - though im not sure if science rejects the idea of a soul as a separate entity to body??- :huh: :huh:

 

so if the idea of the subconsious mind were to be accepted in science, then it might perhaps rebut the argument that one's life is purely shaped by biology? :huh: :huh:

 

hope to hear from u soon :wub::wub::wub:

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Guest maheshabe14

soory guys i didnt read all the other posts but in my opinion we are the ones who shape our destiny..

there is a road in life that God wants us to choose but there are other roads asweell that will lead us to other places..if we're smart enough and have the will we will choose the path that God wants us to choose but if not we still have other choices and the punishment for taking them is the msitakes we make..but theres always someone to take our hands and bring us back onto the road if we fall off..and thats where destiny might come in..those people who are placed on our paths to help us and to take our hands and show us that the roads in life are many and the people to help you out are many aswell..

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Thanx Shazdeh Khanom jan, eide shoma ham mobarak :)

 

Mind is a biological entity indeed; and much progress has been done to understand the molecular basis for memory and learning.

 

Subconscious according othe Freud, is memory that is not in the present mind, or simply said conscious. This does not necessarily mean soul. It means factors that affect one's decision making without one being aware of their presence. Obviously, we are not aware of everything that goes on in our brain, image, memory, langugage, taste, and olfactory processing...reflexes (well maybe not the brain, but CNS), and etc that affect our behavior...but it doesn't mean they constitute the soul. Memory is all subconscious in fact, until it is recalled and brought into consciousness.

 

So subconscious is not a separate entity but biological.

 

 

Hi houmanator jan!  :wub:

 

hope all is well, eid e shoma mobarak :wub:  :wub:

 

soory i didnt reply sooner :bl  :bl  :bl  :bl

 

so are u saying that at the end of the day, mind is a biological entity & as such is the determinative factor in shaping one's pathway in life?

 

i think based on Freudian psychology, subconscious mind is to be distinguished from the conscious mind- i.e. the biological mind- and is in close connection with  " the soul" - though im not sure if science rejects the idea of a soul as a separate entity to body??- :huh:  :huh:

 

so if the idea of the subconsious mind were to be accepted in science, then it might perhaps rebut the argument that one's life is purely shaped by biology? :huh:  :huh: 

 

hope to hear from u soon :wub:  :wub:  :wub:

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hi houmanator jan :):)

 

Thanx again for your prompt response hun! :wub:

 

 

I’ll check to see whether Freud’s definition of subconscious mind had some correlation with the so-called “soul”, but in the meanwhile and for argument’s sake, it seems rather unacceptable to me to that one’s destiny/fate is purely determined by biological factors; given brain’s vulnerability to environmental changes and its volatility, I’d like to think one’s destiny is determined by less volatile and stable factors, so that if one were to be exposed to different environmental cues, one would have some form of control over one’s so called destiny… but then again that’s my 2 cents…:huh: :huh:

 

i'd like to hear your say on the volatility of biological factors and its impact on one's destiny if you dont mind plz :wub:

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I'm not sure if I understand your question right. But I'm going to try to answer your question. As with everything else in biological systems, especially the neurobiological systems, there is a threshold for everything. In other words, enviornmental or biological volatility could be indeed subsided by the presence of a threshold.

 

Let me make a simple example. Lets say you put your hands on a hot plate. Now the question is when would the plate be hot enough for you to withdraw your hand. This varies in case by case bases. It depends on your current cutaneous body temperature, depends on your past experiences with hot plates (i.e. getting burned in previous occassions makes you more likely to avoid hot plate), depends on the efficiency of your neurological wiring (i.e. your reflex), and etc.

 

Human biological system however, is fairly stable. Unstable system is indicative of a pathological behavior, bipolar disorder, depression, and etc, of which bipolar disorder is of a noteworthy example. One day you are on top of the world, the other you're in bottom of a pitless hole.

 

I hope I answered your question.

 

There was a question a while back regarding WHO is it that sees, hears, and etc...really questioning the link between the physiology and perception...well I just came upon a book, haven't read it yet, but it seems very interesting and it touches upon this very subject..."why we see what we do" by Purves and Lotto

 

 

 

hi houmanator jan :)  :)

 

Thanx again for your prompt response hun!  :wub:

 

 

I’ll check to see whether Freud’s definition of subconscious mind had some correlation with the so-called “soul”, but in the meanwhile and for argument’s sake, it seems rather unacceptable to me to that one’s destiny/fate is purely determined by biological factors; given brain’s vulnerability to environmental changes and its volatility, I’d like to think one’s destiny is determined by less volatile and stable factors, so that if one were to be exposed to different environmental cues, one would have some form of control over one’s so called destiny… but then again that’s my 2 cents…:huh:  :huh:

 

i'd like to hear your say on the volatility of biological factors and its impact on one's destiny if you dont mind plz :wub:

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Choice vs Fate ..

 

We, as humans, have been given choices and a certain degree of power over our lives (meaning we can alter our lives' course to a certain extent). But, I believe those very choices have been shaped by fate.

 

In short, whether we pick action A, or action B, in a certain situation, has already been decided by fate.

 

/Yes, it sounds wierd to me too. It makes more sense in my head. :p

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thanx hun for ur answer :wub:

 

well, i like ur answer in that it takes the amount of pressure that one might feel in deciding whether to take action A or B, and the repercussions that accompany each decision out of the equation :dance: :dance: i mean as an example i can be a very indecisive person when it comes to making important decisions and your theory puts one's mind at ease, ie if one feels that at the end, even the decisions that we make are decided by fate :clap::clap: but again it's problematic for me to accept this theory, cause it makes one feel powerless, in that even if we feel that we are making a choice, whatever pathway we take, has already been predetermined by fate and thus it's not a real choice :c :c :c

 

 

 

Choice vs Fate ..

 

In short, whether we pick action A, or action B, in a certain situation, has already been decided by fate.

 

/Yes, it sounds wierd to me too. It makes more sense in my head. :p

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Human biological system however, is fairly stable. Unstable system is indicative of a pathological behavior, bipolar disorder, depression, and etc, of which bipolar disorder is of a noteworthy example. One day you are on top of the world, the other you're in bottom of a pitless hole.

 

 

hey hun :wub::wub::wub:

 

but isnt the so-called pathological behavior, the result of physiological malfunction of the neuro-system -and hence biology- and as such unstable?

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hey hun  :wub:  :wub:  :wub:

 

but isnt the so-called pathological behavior, the result of physiological malfunction of the neuro-system -and hence biology- and as such unstable?

75384[/snapback]

 

 

Sorry for the late response, been busy. In regards to your post, I'm sorry I'm not sure if I understand your question. As I stated before, pathological behavior is indeed the result of unusally unstable physiological system. Majority of times, there is an exaggerated response to a stimuli; the filtering system or the dampening system if you will, is not functioning well. This is the case for example with OCD, Phobias, Anxiety, and etc.

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it's been a while ... :wub::wub:

 

i've been reading this book lately and it's quite interesting, it introduces the concept of "Synchronicity" which was first introduced by Carl Jung, and it describes this concept as the "simultaneous occurance of two meaningfully but not causually connected events". ... so it basically theorizes about the invisible connection that exists in the universe and the ability of mind to "co-create" the world and at the same the connection that exists b/w all living species...

i will put more info on the topic as i read on, but it does give some support to my theory that the power of mind is soooo great that it can in fact create a reality of its own :):)

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LOL, lately the old threads have had tremendous come backs!!! :DD :DD :DD

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make no mistake, this is nooo coincident :no: :no: :no: actually, this theory says that "... nothing in this world is random; the entire "onesong" is exquisitely synchronized"... the funny thing is that when i posted, houmanator signed in, and i was like, wow, we've had this debate going on for a while now, and today, as i was about to make a new post after quite a while, he signed in, so i was like wow, this goes to support the theory that there is no randomness in the universe,our thought pattern is connected... hope it makes sense :bl :bl :p :p

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