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hey guys!

 

i thought it'd be nice to start a new debate here, let's have a fate v choice debate! ;)

to what extent do u think our lives are shaped by destiny/fate and to what extent by personal choice?

give ur reasons here!

needless to say: plz feel free to stir things up and create a nice debate....

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play the PRINCE of PERSIA and you'll know!lol :D

 

Well as rational as I want to be, there has been ”events” and details in my life that I simply cant explain with ”random twist of fate” theory!

 

So I believe in some kind of ”greater scheme” planned by some kind of superior nature!

In my opinion the beginning, the End along with several ”landmarks” and milestones are set by that superior force! But how we take us there, the choice at the cross roads and detours are up to us!

 

 

so I guess half fate, half choice!!

;)

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Well said Pourya! :th

 

Me myself, haven't figured out yet what exactly I believe in or not.

 

But as Pourya said, some things that happends can seem really unbelievable. One thing for me is taking one choice, then years later due to that choice, wonderful thing has happend. It all sometimes seems too much for being coinsidence

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Salam

 

I agree with pourya that there is a "great scheme" and its planned by God or as pourya said the superior nature .I leave big questions to my religion which i believe it has all the answers, and from qurans point of view ,man is not completely a master of his fate; nor is he just a cog in the wheel of destiny

 

however God not only created everything, but He determined its nature and scope. In His infinite wisdom , He gave us limited power and great freedoms, including the freedom of choice .In quran, it is stated that life on earth is a testing ground for Man. And any test requires that the tested should have the freedom to act on their own initiative. Otherwise, there is no meaning in such tests

 

We cannot choose when we are born, to which parents, when we are going to die, or what sex we are born into. But after that we can choose how to act, what to believe, what social and political responsibilities we fulfill or ignore

 

.... and god knows better

my regards

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we have free will.

we make our own choices.

Interesting stuff, if that's the case, then how would you explain it if someone unexpectedly shows up in your life, u bump into someone you haven’t seen for years, or similar experiences that could potentially change your life forever…. for example when u are meant to be on a train that gets involved in an accident and you “accidentally” miss the train and hence don’t die in the accident.. One argument is that well, it’s fate or whatever, the other argument is that we plan everything, like I’ve heard literally by visualizing stuff, you can actually make them happen or not happen to you, which is very scary if you think of it :o .. the power of mind, which I’ve personally experienced it to some extend!like if you visualize something and concentrate on it so hard, it’d happen, both good or bad :ph34r: …

so one could argue that it’s all in the brain, you can literally change your life by changing your focus, and making things happen,, It’d be awesome if you could elaborate on ur answer and say how u’d explain those little "accidents" that one has little or no control over them and yet they happen to u :ph34r: … cheers! :):)

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Guest Keanozzzzzzzzzz
we have free will.

we make our own choices.

I don't think you thought-out much B4 making this statement! :rolleyes:

 

I'll tell u why later, right now I am very sleepy head and "Hoseleye" type kardan va fekr kardan nadaaram. B) :kn

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You’re right. I didn’t put that much thought into my statement because it’s as simple as that. You can make things complicated but here’s the thing: If you believe in God and more particularly you believe in Islam then you also believe that God has given you the power to choose. You do have the free will to do whatever you want.

 

Now, let me make it a bit more complicated.

 

We are given a brain, we are given the ability to think, argue, discuss, and derive our own decisions. Everything in our lives is a conscious choice we make regardless of what some individuals say. (A great book to read is Stephen Covey’s “7 Habits of Highly Effective People”)

 

Ofcourse we do NOT have the ability to decide for others and other individuals’ actions do affects us in one way or another (maybe that is why you said I didn’t think it through?) But it is within OUR choice and OUR free will on HOW to react towards their decisions. We can choose from a million paths. Ofcourse one can then argue that we are a slave to our personality characteristics but then again the majority of who we are is who we CHOOSE to be. We have the power to be better people…we also have the power to be worse.

 

In the end we choose.

 

There is ofcourse some amount of “fate” or “destiny” involved – whatever you want to call it. (I never said there wasn’t, I just wanted to avoid writing an essay which obviously didn’t work so well) But the choices we make leads us to different paths…each path consisting of more paths and those consisting of even more paths. You can even say it’s something like a decision tree but far more complex.

 

People love to blame this person or that person, the weather, their surroundings in general, on how they feel, the decisions they’ve made (since that “fateful” event”), and who they’ve become. We are who we are because we make the decision to be that person. The decisions we made were made by us and not as a result of the act of other people.

 

I’m just trying to imagine the whole destiny thing. Imagining that we are just like robots – that everything we do has already been pre-defined. We’ve been somewhat PROGRAMMED to do certain things in a certain sequence. If that’s the case why are we living? Why is there a heaven and a hell? We do things because it’s our destiny to do so? So we’re not really good or really bad then because we haven’t actually chosen those paths – they were previously chosen by God.

 

People mistake the fact that God knows what is going to happen means what happens is fate. Wrong. He just knows what we’re going to choose and which path we’re going to take – He hasn’t made that decision for us.

 

In the end, one can argue both sides of this. To tell the truth I can find a counter-argument for everything I just said. It goes back to belief which means there is no right and wrong. You are CHOOSING what you believe in – you don’t believe in it because you were “programmed” to.

 

To answer your question Shazdeh jan. I explain those first couple of question like this:

 

You both made certain decisions that led you to be in the same place at the same time. Those person(s) change your life because you have made the conscious choice of allowing them into your life and change them. You choose to have (or not have) someone in your life.

 

Like I said you have free choice but there is a small amount of fate. This topic is kind of odd in the sense that having free choice doesn’t necessarily mean destiny does not exist. Or if you believe in destiny there is no free will. You don’t choose on when to die – that is infact destiny. You don’t choose to which family you are born to – that is destiny.

 

Kimo’s last paragraph was actually right on the dot.

 

I can write so much on this topic but I have to cut it at some point. :)

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I think that the problem originated from your ”short” post! This is the problem with such topics, that you either have to write an essay and cover all aspects or just pass and skip it! As much as I love such topics and writing essays :D , sometimes I’m just to exhausted to engage myself in the discussions! :u:

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Guest Guest_Angel

There was never a problem ;)

 

But yea...totally. I wrote enough essays in university...and with such topics it can go on and on and on and on...like the energizer bunny!

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Guest Kimoo

Salaam

 

avvalan bezarid baraye fereshte khanom tashfig konim :clap: mashalah ur post is like a whole topic :p

 

Id like to add another point ... when God allows an event to occur, whether it is an evil action or a good one, it does not mean that He has forced us to do it. We have chosen it and god has allowed it to come to pass for reasons ....

 

and we cannot know our future and to a large extent we cannot control it. Our decisions are based on our understanding of the way the world works

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Guest Guest_Kimo
mashalah ur post is like a whole topic  :p
>>> een smily eshtebah oftad injah mikhastam eeno bezaram :) >>> (vel konid bekhoda im very baa ahklaagh :D)

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There is ofcourse some amount of “fate” or “destiny” involved – whatever you want to call it. (I never said there wasn’t, I just wanted to avoid writing an essay which obviously didn’t work so well) But the choices we make leads us to different paths…each path consisting of more paths and those consisting of even more paths. You can even say it’s something like a decision tree but far more complex.

Angel joon!

 

very wise and intellectual! i'm really impressed and it;s good to c that u dont deny the power of "fate" :) , shooolyy i didnt mean to challenge u before, and im glad u wrote "the essay" to clarify things, good to know we operate on the same wave length! lol! :)

i was trying to facilitate the lil' debate and spice things up a bit ;)

 

so can someone plzzzzzz disagree and say they dont believe in fate? i like a good argument! -sorry i mean debate- :lol: -where is Konjkav jan when u need him the most? ;)

 

does anyone think u can literally control 100% things in ur life by ur "brain power"? plz refer to my earlier post, sorry if i sound stupid, sometimes i dont like things to conclude easily! lol :DD :DD :DD - i know, im crazzzyyy :lol::lol::lol:

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shazdeh khanooomiiii I know you weren't trying to "challenge" me. ;)

 

I know all about the spicing things up a bit. I adore playing devils advocate :ad

 

Would it help if I said I don't believe in fate at all? Because I could try to argue it. :D

 

Power of mind - I totally believe in it. As an example I believe that people who have a healthy mind have a healthy body and are less sick than individuals who don't think good things and are always negative.

 

I also believe that if you have confidence in yourself others will as well. You have confidence in yourself with your mind and as such with your mind others are having confidence in you and your abilities.

 

I too have experienced things where I've controlled the outcome of certain situations with my mind. The power of the mind and the power of positive thinking is really...I don't know the word for it.

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shazdeh khanooomiiii I know you weren't trying to "challenge" me. ;)

 

I know all about the spicing things up a bit. I adore playing devils advocate :ad

 

Would it help if I said I don't believe in fate at all? Because I could try to argue it. :D

 

Power of mind - I totally believe in it. As an example I believe that people who have a healthy mind have a healthy body and are less sick than individuals who don't think good things and are always negative.

 

I also believe that if you have confidence in yourself others will as well. You have confidence in yourself with your mind and as such with your mind others are having confidence in you and your abilities.

 

I too have experienced things where I've controlled the outcome of certain situations with my mind. The power of the mind and the power of positive thinking is really...I don't know the word for it.

emmmm, very wise! :)

yeah i sometimes get scared of this so-called brain power and how u can literally control the outcome! :ph34r: :ph34r:

 

i would love for u to disagree and argue it from the other point of view! nothing beats a good, constructive argument!! :DD orgasmic is the word to describe it!lol!! :t

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Orgasmic??? :o :))) :th

 

it takes one to know one! ;)

(I'm not that wise :b )

 

Ok...I'll try to think of a good constructive argument for why fate does NOT exist and everything is a choice and post it up. I'll need a bit of time.

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Orgasmic???  :o  :)))  :th

 

it takes one to know one!  ;)

(I'm not that wise  :b )

 

Ok...I'll try to think of a good constructive argument for why fate does NOT exist and everything is a choice and post it up. I'll need a bit of time.

Oh no hun, don’t get me wrong! I meant a “platonic” orgasm and nothing more! Believe me, I wouldn’t have a clue what a "non-platonic" orgasm would be like! Fingers crossed, hope to die! man hanooz kochooloo hastam:b :b :b

 

will be waiting for ur argument though! cant wait :):):)

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There is ofcourse some amount of “fate” or “destiny” involved – whatever you want to call it. (I never said there wasn’t, I just wanted to avoid writing an essay which obviously didn’t work so well) But the choices we make leads us to different paths…each path consisting of more paths and those consisting of even more paths. You can even say it’s something like a decision tree but far more complex.

Angel joon!

 

very wise and intellectual! i'm really impressed and it;s good to c that u dont deny the power of "fate" :) , shooolyy i didnt mean to challenge u before, and im glad u wrote "the essay" to clarify things, good to know we operate on the same wave length! lol! :)

i was trying to facilitate the lil' debate and spice things up a bit ;)

 

so can someone plzzzzzz disagree and say they dont believe in fate? i like a good argument! -sorry i mean debate- :lol: -where is Konjkav jan when u need him the most? ;)

 

does anyone think u can literally control 100% things in ur life by ur "brain power"? plz refer to my earlier post, sorry if i sound stupid, sometimes i dont like things to conclude easily! lol :DD :DD :DD - i know, im crazzzyyy :lol::lol::lol:

Oooo I love ORGASMIC! :lol: Halaa che Platonic che gheire Platonicesh! Lol :p

Khob khanoom age moshkel ba in hal msihe ”I disagree”!lol :rolleyes: :haha:

 

I too believe in the "power of the mind" AND "-will", in the sense that you can accomplish many things in life by learning to controll that! But NOT everything! I don’t believe that it was ”the brain power” of the more than 170 000 people that brought flood-waves upon them! Nor do I believe that it could have stopped it!

 

I would rather believe in the random-chain-of-coincidence theory than such alternative explanation!

 

Sure some MIGHT have some kind of 6th sense that generates and controlls such phenomenons, but these are still phenomenons per definition and not a common hidden power that could be discovered and utilized!

 

I believe in the limitations of the human brain, as powerful as it is! I do not believe that it commonly or normally has such utter functions!

 

I believe that man has the "limited" power to think, behold and learn! And then use the fruit of his thoughts in order to prevent or boost future happenings.

 

But not more than that! and IF anyone claims to have such an "Extraordinary" sense then it is -although not unnatural or supernatural- still extraordinary and extremely unique!

 

that's MY opinion on the subject! ;)

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The power to choose is a very dangerous thing. We can choose the right things or the wrong things. However, the definitions of right and wrong are completely subjective.

 

As human beings we are unsure about a lot of things concerning the universe. Is there a God? Is there not? Why are we born? Why do we die? We are born at a specific time, specific day, specific year. We are born to specific parents. We are under the impression that we don’t really choose our day of birth or our parents.

 

But can one really be sure about that?

 

The answer is simple. No, we can not be 100% sure.

 

In the end, who knows what happens “up there”? Maybe we DO get to choose. We don’t have any memories of before we are born. We hardly have any memories, if any, of when we were babies. Perhaps prior to being born we are given a choice. Perhaps not. But the end of the matter is that we don’t know.

 

When we are children we don’t really make any big decisions. We are affected by the choices our parents make. We have the power to choose though, we just don’t have the power to act upon those choices.

 

I wonder if anyone has seen The Butterfly Effect. It is an excellent movie and it shows how one event, small or big, has such a huge impact on our lives. A simple hello to someone, a simple phrase, a simple word, it can affect us and/or the people around us.

 

We choose to say hello. We choose to say a word, a phrase – and we choose our reaction to the words and phrases that are said to us.

 

Missing the train that will crash in the future is not a coincidence or a miracle, it’s based on our choices.

 

We got up late. Our shirt needed ironing because we procrastinated the night before. Lets even say for argumentative sake that our car wouldn’t start for some bizarre reason. We are late and as such miss the train.

 

It doesn’t end there. What choices has the train coordinator taken? Did he forget to do something? Did he not do his job properly? He made those choices – the train crashed. Lets say it wasn’t the train coordinators fault. He did everything according to the books. Perhaps the train manufacturer decided to put a cheaper part in the train which in the end caused the crash. Perhaps the train didn’t undergo its preventive maintenance as it was scheduled because of the choice a manager had made. These may not be our choices but they are still choices – just made by others who will affect us.

 

Death.

 

Why do people die when they do? Some people ofcourse make the choice to die but no logical person says “Ok…on January 23 4321 I’m going to die” But we do make the choice to be in a certain place at a certain time.

We do make the choice of being healthy or not. We choose to smoke or drink…or not. We choose to keep fit or not. We choose to be somewhere at a certain place and a certain time. We may not choose to get shot but another person makes the choice to open fire on others.

 

These choices LEAD to our death…

 

Having the power to choose does not mean we can control everything in our lives. People often mistake choice with control. It’s not necessarily so.

 

So as you can see….fate does not exist. Fate is something made up by romantics. Fate is something created by people who don’t want to accept responsibility for the bad things that happen to themselves or their loved ones based on the choices they have made. Fate is nothing but something used by people to escape blame.

 

I hope what I wanted to say is clear.

 

Befarma shazdeh khanoom. :)

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Angel khanoomi,

 

doesn’t this argument of yours, which I find highly valid:

 

"As human beings we are unsure about a lot of things concerning the universe. Is there a God? Is there not? Why are we born? Why do we die? We are born at a specific time, specific day, specific year. We are born to specific parents. We are under the impression that we don’t really choose our day of birth or our parents.

 

But can one really be sure about that?

 

The answer is simple. No, we can not be 100% sure.

 

In the end, who knows what happens “up there”? Maybe we DO get to choose. We don’t have any memories of before we are born. We hardly have any memories, if any, of when we were babies. Perhaps prior to being born we are given a choice. Perhaps not. But the end of the matter is that we don’t know."

 

in fact Collides with the following claim of ours:

 

"So as you can see….fate does not exist. Fate is something made up by romantics. Fate is something created by people who don’t want to accept responsibility for the bad things that happen to themselves or their loved ones based on the choices they have made. Fate is nothing but something used by people to escape blame."

 

Just as impossible for us to prove the existence of God beyond a reasonable doubt, we cannot prove that fate doesn’t exist either!

 

it might, it might not... ;)

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well from what I understand, it seems it has been a delima on how much of our lives in our control? well I believe someone asked Imam sadigh not sure if it was that iman but I think it was imam sadigh which he said its 50/50 you cant control everything but your actions are up to you and what you do. But where you are born who your parents are, and where you start out in life isnt really in control. Depening on what we are given and how we use it is what determines where we will go in this life and especially the more important in the next life which is ever lasting.

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Guest Guest_Kimo_*

nice descusion guys (angel ham jozze guys hast :D )

 

angel khanom when u write ur first book in the future let me know ok (wink)

 

this is a qute from mohammad iqbal about the fate

 

‘Divine knowledge must be conceived as a living creative activity, to which the objects that appear to exist in their own right are organically related. By conceiving God's knowledge as a kind of reflecting mirror, we no doubt save His foreknowledge of future events. But, it is obvious that we do so at the expense of His freedom. The future certainly pre-exists in the organic whole of God's creative life, but it pre-exists as an open possibility, not as a fixed order of events with definite outlines

 

my regards

kimo

 

private to pourya (lotfan delete my duplicated post in da first page aaberoomon raft :D )

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angel khanom when u write ur first book in the future let me know ok (wink)

 

:b :b

 

Nice Quote by the way

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