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I can sit and write for you karach...but i won't...not until you start using your own research skills to come up with your own opinions based on your own unbiased research.

 

Taking what some arab says as fact...or for that matter what ANYONE says for fact doesn't make it so.

 

1) Then why don't you just point out that verse to me so I would see it? Don't use I don't know where it is. If you want to be credible and make your theory concrete, you must always site your resources.

 

2)I never ever ever said you're lying. EVER. ;) Just that perhaps your arab friends are slightly misguided or have misunderstood.

 

3) I'm not expecting you to say I'm right either. :p

 

4) I'll leave shazdeh to respond to kittycat.

 

5) :) You can't compare a university textbook to a poem. As such you cannot compare all the technical dealings involved in engineering to the quran. Like I said, the quran is like a big book of poems. Poems are subjective. I can feel and think something totally opposite to what another person things and feels when reading a poem.

 

Anyways, that's just my opinion.

You don't need to agree with it or think i'm right...

 

Cause...

 

I know I'm right so I don't need anyone to tell me so :ad looool :)))

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karach

 

sowwy because i thought u are paki :D my dear some "laws" in islam are hard to blieve and it may seem very harsh unless you know the basics of islam laws ,, another thing plz dont put examples of what arab said because islam is not named after any person, tribe, region or culture. Arabs are just 20% of muslims around the world

 

About apostasy, it wasnt mentioned in quran rather in a "hadith" , this is qoute apostasy

 

"It should be noted that Islam never compels any person to accept it or embrace its teachings. It gives the freedom of thinking to people, with full respect to their mentalities and way of thinking. However, Islam is not a man-made religion that is subject to scrutiny or biased criticism that is based on mere suspicion, since it was originated by Allah, the Supreme Creator of all minds and mentalities. In addition, apostasy causes a total disruption and confusion in the Muslim community, and thus, a severe punishment was set for it to deter anyone from thinking of it. It was originally put into force following the Jewish conspiracy against Islam. The details of that conspiracy were simply mass conversion to Islam and then mass apostasy. The main ill aim was to cause confusion and to lead people astray. Thus, the punishment was set as a precautionary measure to stop all these offenses."

 

and as you see this law was set for a particular time when there was a "caliph" ruling muslims....

 

Angel jaan i disagree that understanding of islam depends on the way someone understands it because its clear in its laws and teachings , and yeah when people read some stories or lessons in quran they understand the preachment or lessons defferently but this doesnt apply on the basics of islam which are Stable :)

 

Karach since you are an engineer i want you to see this website, believe me you'll find alot of answers in it ,,, it belongs to a Turkish scientist (he's not a mulla :D )

dont miss it plz ;) >> http://www.harunyahya.com/ there also a french version (up in the corner)

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I'll leave shazdeh to respond to kittycat.

 

 

lol! thanx Angel joon! i'll do my best! :)

 

KittyCat jone gol va sonbol :)

 

aizizam, jihad means battle… BUT battle could mean different things… it could be as simple as battling ur way by working hard to provide financial security for ur familyor battling for social justice, for peace, for the environment etc etc.

Surely u can’t be calling the environmental supporters out there who "battle" against environmental degradation “violent” merely because they are trying to get a message across :) .

The problem is that most of the times, history, culture and religion amalgamate, create a cloudy scene and make it difficult to distinguish b/w these separate issues.

If u see Prophet Mohammed went to battles, it wasn’t because of religion orders, it was due to historical and cultural reasons, if someone attacks u, wouldn’t u attack them back? :blink: He never attacked an innocent nation, it was merely in self-defense. :)

If u see ppl who claimed to be Muslim, attacked other nations IN THE NAME OF this religion, plz don’t confuse their actions with Islamic principles.

Just as today, the leaders of dominant nations justify their unilateral attacks on sovereign nations in the name of “freedom” “liberty” and “national security”, in the old days, such actions used to be justify in the name of religion. same action, different reason to justify its cause. Because unfortunately, the majority of the ppl in the world, are followers, they don’t think independently, and the leaders know this well, and thus they make a successful attempt in fooling the mess, by trying to justify their actions in the name of various factors, such as religion, faith, freedom. Fooling ppl by utilizing such tools is a trick which has unfortunately been used through out centauries. :(

Also, marrying a 6 y.o. well, that a debatable point….. BUT may I just remind u that legal age of marriage is arbitrary, and depends on a law of a particular nation at one given time in history and has nothing to do with a particular religion. In the past, it might have been common to marry at that age, let’s not link it back to Islam. Just as today, the legal age for heterosexual intercourse is in average in most nations 16-17 whereas for homosexuals it is 18. this is quite arbitrary and could change easily within the next few yrs. So let’s say in 100 yrs’ time, if the legal age to have intercourse changes to 30 {highly unlikely, but for argument’s sake, let’s make a presumption :)) ] then u cannot turn around and say, yuckkkkkk, ppl who were having sex with 17 y.o.s 100 yrs ago were all pedophiles. Or turn around and say wow! What a discrimination b/w homo and hetro sexual intercourse :)) … It’s all arbitrarily and depends on the law of a nation, at a given point in time. :)

 

about God's existance azizam, ppl spend their whole life trying to find answers to such complex questions, it’s both intriguing and challenging and that’s what makes it beautiful :) ,, don’t expect to fully understand the answers to such questions by taking some philosophy classes… the fascinating thing about philosophy is that it opens ur mind up to other possibilities and explanations, BUT it doesn’t give u THE ANSWER :( … it is up to u, to do ur own research, to experiment, and to experience it for urself… philosophy is merely theory, it doesn’t talk about experiences, u can experience metaphysical experiences, -u may choose to call this God or whatever- w/o even taking a philosophy class. :)

 

So I do encourage u, if u really want to seek the truth and the answer, to experience for urself. Read about different schools of thoughts, whether Eastern or Western, from Buddhism to Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity or Islam or even Scientology or any other New Age religions out there and to explore them to find the truth :) . As a way of analogy, philosophy only describes how a grape tastes like, but if u wanna really find out about the taste of the grape, u have to take a bite and test it for urself to understand how it tastes like, not to read descriptions about its flavor. :) go on, taste it, u knoww u want to, lol!!! ;)

 

p.s. hey hun, of course still friends :friends::friends: , u actually make this debate more interesting by ur opinions!! keep it up, lol!! :)

 

saluuuuuute :):)

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Kittykat

 

Jihad at that time was against oppression and injustice, not against non-Muslims as such! Where innocent men, women and children are attacked, or when intolerable atrocities are committed, Muslims are asked to fight to protect the innocent and safeguard their rights ... so plz dont believe such allegtion , millions of non-Muslims continue to live Mulims in the predominantly Muslim countries. Thats why islam is fastest growing religion in the world ... because the the message of Islam is simple, straight forward, and suitable to the innate nature of mankind.

 

 

 

Prophet mohammad married with ayesha when she was 9 not 6 (be sure of ur source :rolleyes: ) and u should know that this was tradition was in the 6th when it was common for a man to marry unlimited number of women and when islam came it restricted the number to 4 and encouraged people to free slaves read this plz ..

 

and you know after the WW2 after that many men has been killed in the wars , western goverment made a temprorary law and encouraged each man to take 7 wives in order re-balance the numbers men and women , and after the problem finished they stoped this law ... how about that

and there are secret clubs in some western countries that swap wives .. how about that ... how about its common that a married wife has 2-3 girlfriends ... how about and how about :D ?

 

Kitty yeah you have a beautiful spirit and you are a good girl ;) do u really think that there is no God or Someone who watch over us :) havent u questioned ur self

 

Where did I come from?

Why am I here?

whats the porpuse of this life?

 

islam answers them ...

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Kimo,

Jihad at that time was against oppression and injustice, not against non-Muslims as such! Where innocent men, women and children are attacked, or when intolerable atrocities are committed, Muslims are asked to fight to protect the innocent and safeguard their rights ...

1- Yes, it was against non-believers! Not necessarily non-muslims, but whoever didn't believe in Muhammad. And it wasn’t just one jihad for Gods sake, it was MANY each has its own name too, lol. Shoot me, but I won’t believe in a religion that was spread by the sword. And Khanoomi, we both know jihad here doesn't mean working hard to provide financial security or environmental support. :rolleyes:

 

Actually, whoever the enemy was, it won’t justify killing, period. A holy person should never commit violence regardless! NEVER…

 

 

Prophet mohammad married with ayesha when she was 9 not 6 (be sure of ur source) and u should know that this was tradition was in the 6th when it was common for a man to marry unlimited number of women and when islam came it restricted the number to 4 and encouraged people to free slaves read this plz ..

 

1- Ummm No hun, I‘m pretty sure of my source. Muhammad married Ayesha when she was 6, but their first encounter was when she turned 9. Honestly does it matter? 6/9 same Shoot! Please don’t give me that tradition crap. A 6 or 9 year old is a CHILD regardless of the timeline. It is considered a child now, it was considered a child 2,000 years ago. That is the most ridiculous excuse ever. A man, it his right mind, would never marry a child.

 

2- Sooo Islam restricted the number to 4?.… Ummm but why not just ONE, lol? Ohhh I know, I know, what was the term for it.. ah 'tradition' :D … bad bad tradition, naughty naughty! lol, as a woman I can't be any prouder of my ancestor's and prophet's tradition. It gives me value and respect.

 

and you know after the WW2 after that many men has been killed in the wars , western goverment made a temprorary law and encouraged each man to take 7 wives in order re-balance the numbers men and women , and after the problem finished they stoped this law ... how about that

and there are secret clubs in some western countries that swap wives .. how about that ... how about its common that a married wife has 2-3 girlfriends ... how about and how

 

1- hehe, there was no such thing. There was never a population problem after the WWII.... As the matter of fact have you heard of the term “baby boom”, well the birthrate soared in the postwar years as millions of Americans started families (one wife/one husband :) ). The “baby boom” peaked in 1957, when 4.3 million babies were born, one every seven seconds! Just so you know, many men got married BEFORE they went to war so they would have something to look forward to, and surprisingly enough most of these marriages actually survived! Also, WWII was the first U.S. war in which women received regular military status, about 350,000 women joined up… sooooo I’m sure women died as well.

 

2- As far as a married man having a girlfriend or two, we actually have a term for it a “cheater” and it’s not any of my concerns. Why would you even bring that up? So you’re comparing a cheater with our (not really mine, but your) prophet?

 

 

Where did I come from?

Why am I here?

whats the porpuse of this life?

islam answers them ...

Well you know, evolutionists have their answers for all those questions!

So do all the other religions, lol.

Personally, I want there to be a God, and I’m not denying the possibility, but I’m just not 100% sure that there is either.

 

 

 

Actually I wanna write more on this, but have a test to study for, maybe tomorrow…

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1) first for Angel:

OK OK angel, I also don't want to write and argue hundred of years about that, but I'll look for this verse, really, I'll do... After all, it's the "scientific" way to do things :D

 

And I don't say you are right, I don't say you are wrong miss! ;)

 

OK, let's not compare a univ text to a poem or spiritual book, I told you my comparison was a bit too extreme, just like yours before :D

 

but well, I'll search, just wait... :)

 

 

2) for Kimo:

no problem my "not uzbek" friend. :D

I'll look that website, promise :buba:

But well, I will never forget how arabs behaved in front of me (not specially against me you know). I mean they like to show off a lot about themselve and islam and to show that their rules are the bests. i don't know, but in france it's really not appreciated... :ph34r: :no:

 

3) My position is the following:

It's very personnal, I don't care... :kn

I don't wanna know who supposedly made the world, everything's about science, not supperstition, so I don't believe in an Entity who create and rule over us.

I got everything I have by mysel and I'm not ready to give credits to any kind of "god" (that's what my mommy does for ex :))) )!!!!

Well as you see, my opinion is just that, I'm - I think - honest apart from that, so why should I need a god? :))

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Kittykat

 

- huny if islam was spread by sword it wouldnt become the fastest growing religion in the world, it has reached indonesia by some traders and it had spread in turkey and india by muslim preachers , at that time islam replaced many well stablished religions like christianity and zortoshtian , and even when the muslims became weak those religions couldnt replace islam though they tried very hard !! because the the message of Islam is simple, straight forward, and suitable to the innate nature of mankind. >> :D

 

 

1- Ummm No hun, I‘m pretty sure of my source. Muhammad married Ayesha when she was 6, but their first encounter was when she turned 9. Honestly does it matter? 6/9 same Shoot! Please don’t give me that tradition crap. A 6 or 9 year old is a CHILD regardless of the timeline. It is considered a child now, it was considered a child 2,000 years ago. That is the most ridiculous excuse ever. A man, it his right mind, would never marry a child.

 

oh ur source is WRONG !! She was nine and their first encounter ws when she turned 13 anyway we are comparing an old tradition with nowadays ... so let it go :)

 

 

1- hehe, there was no such thing. There was never a population problem after the WWII.... As the matter of fact have you heard of the term “baby boom”, well the birthrate soared in the postwar years as millions of Americans started families (one wife/one husband  ). The “baby boom” peaked in 1957, when 4.3 million babies were born, one every seven

 

No there was such thing but i dont remember which war :D (someone told me WW2) i'll try to get the story ...

 

2- As far as a married man having a girlfriend or two, we actually have a term for it a “cheater” and it’s not any of my concerns. Why would you even bring that up? So you’re comparing a cheater with our (not really mine, but your) prophet?

 

No :angry: i brought up that because u mentioned the muslims having more than one wife (though its not common these days) while in the west its common that a man have a number of "Lovers" beside his wife :D plus this crazy habit (girlfriend >> dating >> Sex) :D thats why many women overthere are affected with small or big sexual diseases while muslim women are the purest women on earth and everybody knows that :D

 

 

Well you know, evolutionists have their answers for all those questions!

So do all the other religions, lol.

Personally, I want there to be a God, and I’m not denying the possibility, but I’m just not 100% sure that there is either.

 

Actually I wanna write more on this, but have a test to study for, maybe tomorrow…

 

mm i think evolution became an old fashion and also it doesnt answer questions like that (whats the purpose of this life )

but im interested to hear your opiniion though :)

 

karach jan i'll reply to ur post later ;)

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I disagree with you on a few things kimo...

islam was spread by the sword. You don't need to look farther than the Persian history to know how Persians became muslims. If it weren't for arabs we would most likely still be zoroastrians!!

 

...right now it's the fastest WITHOUT the sword, but in the good old days it was.

 

Personally I believe in God. I also believe in Darwin's theory of evolution. We evolved throughout centuries and centuries, but we started from somewhere and moved up in the food chain.

 

Anyways...

 

looking forward to the verse karach. ;)

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I disagree with you on a few things kimo...

islam was spread by the sword. You don't need to look farther than the Persian history to know how Persians became muslims. If it weren't for arabs we would most likely still be zoroastrians!!

 

...right now it's the fastest WITHOUT the sword, but in the good old days it was.

 

Hey Angel joon! how is it hangin? :):)

 

 

i agree with pretty much everything u said, but it’s not that simple to say Islam was spread by sword; may I just refer u to Encyclopædia Iranica p 202- 217;

For example in case of Iran, Arab presence in Iran didn’t begin with Islamic conquest, much of Iran was taken peacefully by arranging treaties, but Iraq mainly by force (Iranica 211). fall of Sassanians in that time is attributed to class and religious strife in society, lack of public support for an elitist regime, conflict amongst nobles, dynastic instability, cost of long and unsuccessful war with Byzantines. Many became Muslim out of choice, not due to coercion, for example Persian governor at San’a became Muslim and “acknowledged Mohammad” who made him an agent in Yaman. (Iranica: 206)etc etc…

 

during Prophet Mohammed’s time Islam was mainly spread from one person to another, heart to heart, none of this invasion stuff, and with other countries through treaties and diplomatic means.

It was only after his death that “force” came into power, and again, as I said it was due to the greed and corruption of those Arab rulers, who wanted to expand their empire in the name of Islam, as a means of disguising their true intentions.

So the fault is with those who abused and manipulated its name to propagate their own agenda.

 

Cheers! :):):)

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Kittykat

 

- huny if islam was spread by sword it wouldnt become the fastest growing religion in the world, it has reached indonesia by some traders and it had spread in turkey and india by muslim preachers , at that time islam replaced many well stablished religions like christianity and zortoshtian , and even when the muslims became weak those religions couldnt replace islam though they tried very hard !! because the the message of Islam is simple, straight forward, and suitable to the innate nature of mankind. >> :D

 

 

 

Sure people are converting, Michael Jackson, an accused child molester, just converted :rolleyes: and bam… all of a sudden he’s got Muslims’ support! But do we really need him? Think not. Should we support him? Think not. Is it something to be proud of? Think not.

So if you ask me, it’s quality that matters, not quantity. Not the amount of people that convert, but their quality. Have you ever asked yourself who are the ones converting, under what conditions, and why?

 

Also, I‘m sure you heard the news 2-3 years ago about the forced conversion of Christians to Islam in Sudan, right? Lets not get into the unpleasant details.

 

 

and even when the muslims became weak those religions couldnt replace islam though they tried very hard !! because the the message of Islam is simple, straight forward, and suitable to the innate nature of mankind. >> :D

Don't think so. I think the reason other religions didn't replace Islam is not because of Islam's message but because:

 

Muslims are forbidden by law to change their religious identity, but in other religions people are free to convert to Islam and the religion doesn’t put any restrictions on it. I know for a fact this is the case for Iranians, Egyptian Muslims, and Saudis, you will get killed in those countries for conversion. Actually in almost every Islamic country converting to Christianity is strictly forbidden and the penalty is death. I can only imagine what converting to Judaism would bring, lol . Name one Christian country that forbids conversion? Right, there are none! ;)

"Any Muslim who converts from Islam and attacks Mohammed's prophecy and accuses him of being a liar, his blood would be shed. His wife should be divorced from him and his possessions should be distributed among his heirs and he should be killed. The Islam (ruler) should kill him without a chance to repent." proclaimed Aba Abdulla in the case of Robert Hussein, 29 May 1996.

So I’m sure with restrictions like that, other religions won't replace Islam and Islam would be the fastest growing religion. But again, who are the ones converting?

 

Just my two cents

 

p.s. Follow Angel's advice and open a history book and read the section about all the Jihads Muhamad led (using a swrod). Knowing your own history is a must! :bye:

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Muslims are forbidden by law to change their religious identity, but  in other religions people are free to convert to Islam and the religion doesn’t put any restrictions on it.  I know for a fact this is the case for Iranians, Egyptian Muslims, and Saudis, you will get killed in those countries for conversion.  Actually in almost every Islamic country  converting to Christianity is strictly forbidden and the penalty is death.

 

KittyCat jan,

 

if u really want to know the truth, let’s separate the true Islamic principles, from those countries that have supposedly “based” their judicial system on Islamic laws, according to what suits them the best. May I refer u to the holy Koran, second Sura: Baqara: 2: 256: and I respectfully quote: let there be no compulsion in religion, truth stands out clear from Error…”

No where in the holy Koran, there is a mention of having to convert by force! :) quite to the contrary, Islam actually invites ppl to search, to question things and to find out the truth for themselves, i.e. one has to be a “salek” and seek the truth :) active learning and seeking is encouraged and passive and blind obedience is strongly condemned. As a muslim, one has a DUTY to search other religions, to search for the truth and to make a free choice. :)

don’t be mislead by those counties that claim to have based their judiciary and legal system on “Islamic” principles. It is indeed not based on true Islamic principles. There is a lot of, and I mean a lot of horseshit u can sell to ppl by labeling ur laws and actions as “Islamic” and prescribing a quick fixed remedy for it… :(

 

it is quite unfortunate and regrettable to see ppl who sh** in the name of Islam, lead others to think their actions is based on Islamic principles, where in actual fact, what they claim and do is in complete conflict with true Islamic principles. :(

As I said, it is very hard to distinguish b/w the true essence of islam, but if one is a true seeker and a “salek” then one should dare to go beyond what meets the eye and discover the truth for oneself. :)

Remember that it is sooo easy to manipulate a religion, and change it to suit a particular governments’ political needs. Fascism and totalitarianism can manifest themselves in numerous ways and can be justified in numerous ways… it can be justified in the name of national identity as it did 60 yrs ago in Hitler’s time, or it can be justified as we see today in the so-called “Islamic” countries like Iran in the name of religion :( . Cause it makes it easier for the rulers to cover their lack of accountability and transparency and to say u are not allowed to convert due to Islamic laws and cannot question things, so they don't have to be accountable for their own actions and it is an esasy tool to control the mess. :)

However the true seeker goes beyond what meets the eyes.. at the end of the day, all religions have the same root anyway and say the same thing cause they all originate from the same source of life.. One doesn’t even need to have a religion to grow spiritually :) ….

And about the history of Iran and Arab’s interaction and the so-called “invasion” I refer u to the following sources, hope they help to clarify the point that it wasn’t done by sword, at least during Prophet Mohammed’s time but through diplomatic means.

Encyclopædia Iranica p 202- 217;

E.F Schmidt, Perspolis III, 1969

J. Wellhausen, The Arab Kingdom and its Fall, 1927

Die Dynastie der Lahmiden in al-Hira, Berlin, 1899

M.A. Shaban, Islamic History: A New Interpretation, 1971

 

 

good luck in ur research hun :):):)

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Shazdeh joon,

 

My reply was to "Kimo" for his statement about "Islam being the fastest growing religion, regardless of the effort of other religions to convert Muslims, because Islam is so great" or something down those lines.

 

Therefore, I explained to him WHY this is the case, not because Islam is so marvelous, but because Islamic countries forbid the conversion and the penalty is death.

 

The debate is on the conversion, not Quran.

 

:)

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great then :)

 

well, it really saddens me that ppl cannot sometimes differentiate b/w Islam and its followers, so i was kinda trying to clarify that :)

but alll gooooooooooooooooodddd hun!!! :) :brun: :brun: :brun:

 

 

 

 

 

Shazdeh joon,

 

My reply was to "Kimo" for his statement about "Islam being the fastest growing religion, regardless of the effort of other religions to convert Muslims, because Islam is so great" or something down those lines.

 

Therefore, I explained to him WHY this is the case, not because Quran is so marvelous, but because Islamic countries forbid the conversion and the penalty is death.

 

The debate is on the conversion, not Quran.

 

:)

45946[/snapback]

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Y u wanna trip on me?

Y Y Y Y?

Y u wanna trip on me?

Y Y Y Y?

 

Boom Booboom, booom booboom, Guitar solo....

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ha! he comes here and "why whys" and wants to be the promoter and share the profit as well,,,, i dont think sooooo :t :t :t :t :t

 

 

Y u wanna trip on me?

Y Y Y Y?

Y u wanna trip on me?

Y Y Y Y?

 

Boom Booboom, booom booboom, Guitar solo....

46055[/snapback]

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Shazdeh!

I not only am I the promoter, but as well an invester, so you better praise my singing abilities!!!

 

Come on guys!

this topic is getting boring!!!!

Mix it up with some sexual excercises!!

I am sure both prophets will love it! :DD

 

Just kidding baba!

 

Don't hammer me now with fundamental attacks!

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well, i object to u being both the promoter as well as the investor, I am going to be the primary investor... btw, this is how u spell the word: INVESTOR not invester....hahahahah!!! :))):))):))):)))

 

 

 

 

Shazdeh!

I not only am I the promoter, but as well an invester, so you better praise my singing abilities!!!

 

Come on guys!

this topic is getting boring!!!!

Mix it up with some sexual excercises!!

I am sure both prophets will love it!  :DD

 

Just kidding baba!

 

Don't hammer me now with fundamental attacks!

46076[/snapback]

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Not here in Mars! :D

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Sure people are converting, Michael Jackson, an accused child molester, just converted  and bam… all of a sudden he’s got Muslims’ support! But do we really need him? Think not. Should we support him? Think not. Is it something to be proud of? Think not.

So if you ask me, it’s quality that matters, not quantity. Not the amount of people that convert, but their quality. Have you ever asked yourself who are the ones converting, under what conditions, and why?

 

I like that way you say we ;) yeah i was dissappointed when i heared Mj became a muslim, i mean did he said that himself ? if yes , im not proud that this sick (yet talnted :D ) person becoming a muslim and im sure he did that to gain some support ... i think most muslims agree on that .

And yes the quality matters more than the quantity but i hope you are not trying to decrease their thinking or their mentality's level just because they did something u dont agree with .. cuz this is called ( Takabbor) someone will not convert from his religion just like that!! unless he believes that he wants it

your reply was based on the point that people in muslim countries doesnt convert to christian because they are afraid of the death penalty , Well i live in dubai and im telling you this is not happening at all and there is no such law :) and shazdeh khanom prooved that quran did mentioned that :) maybe the reason that some muslims doesnt converse is because they are afraid of the society's look at them :rolleyes: lets talk about the USA .. islam is growing quite well there and in England it is predicted that after 50 years the majority will be muslims weather by conversion or migration

 

I've mentioned this example before ...In Indonesia, which is the country with the largest Muslim population now, or in Malaysia or Bangladesh, there was no Muslim conqueror to be blamed for conversion ... so dont say they are just quantity ok cuz they'll get mad :D and yes i agree with on the example of sudan but there are good and bad muslims (or even goverments!!)

 

i agree with pretty much everything u said, but it’s not that simple to say Islam was spread by sword; may I just refer u to Encyclopædia Iranica p 202- 217;

For example in case of Iran, Arab presence in Iran didn’t begin with Islamic conquest, much of Iran was taken peacefully by arranging treaties, but Iraq mainly by force (Iranica 211). fall of Sassanians in that time is attributed to class and religious strife in society, lack of public support for an elitist regime, conflict amongst nobles, dynastic instability, cost of long and unsuccessful war with Byzantines. Many became Muslim out of choice, not due to coercion, for example Persian governor at San’a became Muslim and “acknowledged Mohammad” who made him an agent in Yaman. (Iranica: 206)etc etc…

 

ok i did some researsh and i was WRONG about the spreading of islam in persia :D

 

I totally agree with u shazde ... The Prophet took up the sword in self-defense and that, too, only against those brutal enemies who went beyond all reason to oppress him and his followers. and in islam Fighting for justice is permited in islam

And it is also true that in later history, ignorant Muslims have occasionally done wrong. But such instances were clearly in violation of Islamic principles but this was after 100 years of the prophets death

 

 

“History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated” (Islam at the Crossroads, London, 1923 p. 8).

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Come on guys!

this topic is getting boring!!!!

Mix it up with some sexual excercises!!

I am sure both prophets will love it!  :DD 

 

ok guys join us tonight we are going to play cards in the coffee-shop ...

 

keano azizam what "both prophets" its about something else ghorboonet beram :D va salaame sexual exercises beresoon :)))

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Kimo jan

 

the arabs invaded persia not because of self-defense but to spread Islam...and they did that through sword, brutality, and savagry.

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I disagree shazdehee jaan jaani.   :angel:

 

Persians were forced to convert....they did not do it out of choice.

46388[/snapback]

 

 

Hey hun! :):angel:

Im thoroughly enjoying these debates of ours! Hope u do too!! :):):angel::angel:

 

Well, as I said, u have to be more specific azizam, :) do u mean before or after the Prophet? More specifically even if u mean during the Prophet’s time, I accept that there are always individuals, who might exercise coercion, but it doesn’t mean that it has been due to an order from the top! ;) Individuals act brutally in any conflict, that’s why these days we have the so-called Geneva Convention and other treaties in relation to POWs to hold individuals- and not the entire state- personally accountable for their actions. E.g. systematic rapes/ genocides etc etc are all sadly byproducts of any conflict, not because of any order from the top, but because individuals act brutally and any conflict brings out the worst in everyone, look Rwanda, Iraq, etc. :(:(

 

May I just refer u to a quote: “the history of Arab colonization in Iran has been clouded to a great degree by the inherent biases and limitations of the sources and three fundamental misconceptions arising from them”. (Iranica, 210)

So my point: we have to look at the history with an unbiased view (I know most Persians are not very fond of Arabs- and I don’t mean u! I know just like me, u like them! ;) ) and this affects the way Iranian historians have recorded the history. More specifically, u have to look at the whole picture and take into consideration the period in time in which u are referring to :) . I referred to some sources in my previous post. U might find them useful if u have chance to read them. :)

I’d be more than happy for u to rebut my argument with any reliable sources that u may have and to convince me otherwise :angel::angel::angel:

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lets talk about the USA .. islam is growing quite well there and in England it is predicted that after 50 years the majority will be muslims weather by conversion or migration

 

The reason is immigration hun not conversion, the rate of Europeans or Americans converting to Islam is very low. So the real question is: why is the immigration rate so high? I mean if we are so proud of our culture and religion, why seek happiness in another country, culture, and religion’s soil :rolleyes: ? Such as Europe and North America. And turn around and say, look our religion is growing faster than theirs in their country. I always wonder, why are most Muslim countries Third World countries? Maybe the religion and mentality of people has something to do with it? I’m sure it does. I mean the main reason many Muslim Arab countries as well as Iran have high GDP is because of oil, not technology and industrialization! Why? And you’re excited about people in Indonesia and India converting? lol

 

You keep claiming that Islam is the largest growing religion in the world, but you don’t realize the main reason is the BIRTH RATE in Third World countries, not conversion. And for Europe and North Amrica specially Canada, you know how high the immigration rate is! I don’t think it’s fair to make such claims for the growth of Islam in Europe and North America when in reality it’s because of their generosity who let us immigrate, often fleeing the hostile environment of our Muslim countries seeking a better education and life in theirs. :)

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Kimo jan

 

the arabs invaded persia not because of self-defense but to spread Islam...and they did that through sword, brutality, and savagry.

46390[/snapback]

 

Angel jan, at the prophets time he faught his enemies in self-defence but after the prophet (pbuh) many ignorant muslim rulers conquerd othr countries because of their interest in power and money more than spreading islam ... most of the persian converted so that they get advantages from arabs who offered a fair treatment to populations that accepted Islamic rule without resistance , but yes there were wars and many persian were killed by arabs ...

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